Are humans inherently evil?

[Cythraul]

Holy fucking wedgy !

So whats that mean ? If we werent conditioned we would be stuffing hands in toasters and think its just fine ? Revert back to our monkey ways ? Live the life glorified in gore flicks ? Christ you all sound just like the preachers you condemn, "we were all born to sin" Agree with "we were all born inherently evil" and you are agreeing with the bible.

Oh... how very interesting

I don't know if you're responding to me in particular, but if you are I think you should know that I in no way ever endorsed this false dichotomy you've set up. Try knocking down something else besides strawmen.

speak for yourselves, I was not born evil and evil is not an invented notion, wrong is not an invented notion, bad is not an invented notion, they are just words used to describe such actions same as we have words to describe everything else.

Bullshit. Words like 'bad', 'good', 'evil', etc. are normative and evaluative. They do not describe some class of actions. I don't think anybody worth talking to would deny that words such as 'bad' and 'evil' are commonly used in such a way that they are applied to actions like putting a cat in a microwave, putting someone's hand in a toaster, etc., but this is not so much a result of the semantics of said words but rather the result of the moral views of the people using the words. If it were the case that these words were descriptive, and only descriptive, then calling something 'bad' or 'good' would have no normative significance, and thus no moral significance.

The source of your confusion is that you think these words pick out some class of actions. I suspect that the problem most of your opponents would have in maintaining that there are true statements about the goodness or badness of actions is that they simply do not believe there are such things as truths of morality or normativity. That is quite different from whether there are actions that you call 'bad' or 'good' (which there clearly are; this point is uncontroversial).

 

[razoredge]

that was alot of writting and Im not sure if you said anything. Im not one to concern myself with "created" notions or take offence to the defination of words, others seem to really be alarmed, some evolution believers seem to struggle with evolution

 

[Cythraul]

that was alot of writting and Im not sure if you said anything.

It's no fault of mine that your reading comprehension skills are subpar.

Im not one to concern myself with "created" notions or take offence to the defination of words, others seem to really be alarmed, some evolution believers seem to struggle with evolution

I would agree that you're not one to take offence to the "defination" of words. Rather, you're one to propose obviously false conjectures about the semantics of evaluative/normative terms and then fail to defend said conjectures in the face of criticism. Come back when you're ready to engage in critical thinking.

 

[razoredge]

You are no contest ol boy, you are the one failing to comprehend any presentation as well as defining just exactly what it is that causes you such confusion. When you identify such perhaps I could help ease your tears.

** I should add... in normal common English, I have no use for vocabulary self gratification exibitionist skills.

 

[razoredge]

Or perhaps you would like to come and place your hand on my anvil while I pound it with a hammer, we'll video tape it and start a topic of critical thinking on whether this was evil, bad, wrong, or kind, good and friendly on my behalf.

 

[Cythraul]

You are no contest ol boy, you are the one failing to comprehend any presentation as well as defining just exactly what it is that causes you such confusion. When you identify such perhaps I could help ease your tears.

Exactly what have I failed to comprehend? I understand exactly what your bullshit position is all about. You should actually try engaging the criticisms instead of beating around the bush. Then again, why should I expect any such thing? You're not exactly an intellectual heavyweight by any stretch of the imagination.

 

[Cythraul]

Or perhaps you would like to come and place your hand on my anvil while I pound it with a hammer, we'll video tape it and start a topic of critical thinking on whether this was evil, bad, wrong, or kind, good and friendly on my behalf.

I don't believe I've ever engaged in "debate" with anybody quite as dense and stubborn as you. Look, this is not fucking rocket science. Nobody is denying that the imaginary scenarios you're concocting wouldn't be called 'evil' or 'bad' by most people. You seem to think that to deny that such things are evil or bad is to deny that such terms apply to such cases, analogous to denying that 'horse' applies to horses. The only thing people are feeling compelled to deny is the normative/evaluative implications of such talk. You certainly aren't defending your position by saying "look, this stuff is evil! It's obvious." That doesn't demonstrate the existence of normative/evaluative truths; it just begs the question.

 

[Volve]

I think humans are born both good and bad. Our upbringing is supposed to create a balance and teach us how to behave.

Anyway I have learned that catoliks think humans are born good, while Lutherans think humans are born eval.

Yes, I didn't read the hole tread this time ... was it that obvious?

 

[razoredge]

I think humans are born both good and bad. Our upbringing is supposed to create a balance and teach us how to behave.

Anyway I have learned that catoliks think humans are born good, while Lutherans think humans are born eval.

Yes, I didn't read the hole tread this time ... was it that obvious?

Possibly all, but I wouldnt wager 100%. My point has been that I dont think it is totally due to upbringing, or imposed moral values by society, church or law. I think a person has the ability to consider if any given action would be wrongful, harmful, hurtful or what ever man made descriptive word one wants to choose, against that person. There is no doubt some care more than others. I believe this ability of compassion and/or consideration in most sane people is inherent and has further evolved with man right along side of the rest of his evolution. Unfortuantly so has greed.... the roote of all evil....

I assume by catoliks you mean Catholics ? The church I went to as a child was Protestant/Methodist and that preacher, a miserable old barren woman was hell bent on continously pounding in our heads that we were born sinners. I constantly pondered in anger just exactly what the sins were I or my people had been doing. Yet I dont have the hatred for religious people, morals, ethics, reasonable regulations, laws and such as often seen displayed around here.

 

[razoredge]

Exactly what have I failed to comprehend? I understand exactly what your bullshit position is all about. You should actually try engaging the criticisms instead of beating around the bush. Then again, why should I expect any such thing? You're not exactly an intellectual heavyweight by any stretch of the imagination.

What have you comprehended ?
What is my bullshit position ?
What bush is it you want me to jump over ?
What intellectual burdon is it that you find I can not carry ?
Websters word play ?

oh, Im so invigoratingly impressed....

 

[razoredge]

I don't believe I've ever engaged in "debate" with anybody quite as dense and stubborn as you. Look, this is not fucking rocket science. Nobody is denying that the imaginary scenarios you're concocting wouldn't be called 'evil' or 'bad' by most people. You seem to think that to deny that such things are evil or bad is to deny that such terms apply to such cases, analogous to denying that 'horse' applies to horses. The only thing people are feeling compelled to deny is the normative/evaluative implications of such talk. You certainly aren't defending your position by saying "look, this stuff is evil! It's obvious." That doesn't demonstrate the existence of normative/evaluative truths; it just begs the question.

I dont debate, I simply relate
Im finding you dense... go figure
Im not a rocket scientist, is this a rocket science thread ?
I think denying such terms applied to such cases is to deny application... huh ? OK, must be :zombie:
Deny, deny, deny... OK, Im into that and mouses too
Alright, I no longer know my position of bullshit, only you, so please explain my position so I can reorganize it and try to explain it better to you so you quit your cryin'
"normative/evaluative truth" gooodang... you got me there!
So when your done begging, hows aboutst writing out "the question", in English please ? I've been waiting for that for, what, a week or so now ? But as with all easily distracted people you just seem to apply yourself to "whats wrong with me"

I'll be anxiously waiting :Smokin:

 

[Cythraul]

You know exactly what your position is. Why should I explain to you what I take your position to be? It's quite evident from the criticism I've been leveling at you what I take your views to be.

And now you are simply talking nonsense (not that that's a huge departure from the normal run of things though). I find it absolutely rich that you're criticizing my prose since your command of English isn't a whole lot better than that of a pre-schooler with Down's Syndrome. I am speaking perfectly clear English. I really have no fucking idea what to say to you anymore.

Honestly dude, you really have no business in an intellectual conversation. You should probably just save yourself the embarrassment and leave this forum.

 

[razoredge]

Yarite, I go now where and certainly not at the whim of someone who tells me to and has yet to even get the point across about just exactly what your problem is with my view point or ideals or expression there of. You want to figure out what to say, try answering some of the questions I have asked. Most of them were serious questions with only enough satire to return your favor. I have been in this topic since it began and spelled out my position with much effort, you showed up a week ago and started in on me NOT the topic. "pre-schooler with Downs Syndrome" yeah, you da man, now prove it

 

[Cythraul]

Yarite, I go now where and certainly not at the whim of someone who tells me to and has yet to even get the point across about just exactly what your problem is with my view point or ideals or expression there of.

There have been plenty of posts made by me in response to your views, you fucking moron. I don't really know how much more to-the-point they could be.

You want to figure out what to say, try answering some of the questions I have asked. Most of them were serious questions with only enough satire to return your favor.

What serious questions? The one asking me to spell out what I take to be your view? I already addressed this in my previous post. At any rate, what is the point? Why should I waste my time when you can't even be bothered to actually counter the criticisms I've leveled at the views you've been advancing with rational argument? What am I supposed to expect from you? You're a fucking waste of time.

I have been in this topic since it began and spelled out my position with much effort, you showed up a week ago and started in on me NOT the topic. "pre-schooler with Downs Syndrome" yeah, you da man, now prove it

Excuse me? I started in on you? The very first claim of yours which I criticized was a claim you made about yourself. That criticism hardly amounts to "starting in on you". At any rate, I've offered plenty of other criticisms of your views, views which you've made next to no effort to defend against my criticism. You've made it evident that you're not interested in rational debate. What exactly have you done other than beg the question against me?

 

[razoredge]

The only thing I caught was that Im a slave to the thinking and influence of society and I did respond to that. I said that a person, in this case myself, as I said I dont debate, I relate... that a person has the ability to think of consequences they can impose on others against their will. Anything else you said must have been riddled with fancy dialog that I have no shame in admitting I can not decifer... that does not make me a moron, a down syndrome pre-schooler or in any way stupid or unworthy, I am just a regular guy and have never made any claims otherwise... OK

So if you have a point to bring to me, basic English will do just fine, unless you have something to prove, then you will need to do what you need to do.

 

[Sisyphus's Struggle]

The problem with "humanity" is that we are in differents spheres of reality, and we are not even able to "put in words" what's real. To say humans are or aren't inherently evil is to alienating from what it's the reality and what makes us humans.

 

[Volve]

Possibly all, but I wouldnt wager 100%. My point has been that I dont think it is totally due to upbringing, or imposed moral values by society, church or law. I think a person has the ability to consider if any given action would be wrongful, harmful, hurtful or what ever man made descriptive word one wants to choose, against that person. There is no doubt some care more than others. I believe this ability of compassion and/or consideration in most sane people is inherent and has further evolved with man right along side of the rest of his evolution. Unfortuantly so has greed.... the roote of all evil....

I assume by catoliks you mean Catholics ? The church I went to as a child was Protestant/Methodist and that preacher, a miserable old barren woman was hell bent on continously pounding in our heads that we were born sinners. I constantly pondered in anger just exactly what the sins were I or my people had been doing. Yet I dont have the hatred for religious people, morals, ethics, reasonable regulations, laws and such as often seen displayed around here.

Catholics yes, I'm not english. Really I should make you all speek norwegian. That would be a challenge for you. A challenge you would not rise to. I'm kidding. Was wondering how to spell it, got it wrong obviously.

To the subject. Some people have a braindamage too. I'm not sure if the fact that some people is born with less compassion make them evil. Perhaps more a lack of understanding. Sometimes they regret later on. Humans are not perfect.

 

[razoredge]

Catholics yes, I'm not english. Really I should make you all speek norwegian. That would be a challenge for you. A challenge you would not rise to. I'm kidding. Was wondering how to spell it, got it wrong obviously.

To the subject. Some people have a braindamage too. I'm not sure if the fact that some people is born with less compassion make them evil. Perhaps more a lack of understanding. Sometimes they regret later on. Humans are not perfect.

No, not critizing you at all on your spelling, I was aware of what you were dealing with. Im not one to have problems with any of that even if english was your standard language, we have plenty of others here on the job for that. I just wanted to make sure that was what you meant, at first I was going to ask what catolic was, thinking is was something I was unaware of. You are correct in that I have no desire to learn any other language, I give you credit for your effort.

On the subject, I would say those that do not show thought of others are selfish and/or greedy. I believe they know fully well what they are doing. Anyone that regrets later on is proof that they fully understand. I understand the not perfect part of humans on the petty little things but I accept NO excuses on the more hardcore things.

 

[Volve]

Yes, but are they born with it? People's upbringing is a big problem. Not only the parents but the environment too. If people is brought up in a harsh environment, then I guess that would effect them.

As I said people do wrong decitions when they are young and end up being cursed by it. Perhaps end up in the wrong gang in theire young days and realize when they get older how theire life could have been. How dreadfull we only live ones.

 

[razoredge]

Yes, but are they born with it? People's upbringing is a big problem. Not only the parents but the environment too. If people is brought up in a harsh environment, then I guess that would effect them.

As I said people do wrong decitions when they are young and end up being cursed by it. Perhaps end up in the wrong gang in theire young days and realize when they get older how theire life could have been. How dreadfull we only live ones.

You are correct and I wont argue about early childhood development and environmental pressures. None the less I still feel people know of what they do, unless their mind doesnt work every waking moment.

This other thing you speak of is one of the prices for youthful rebellion, I have paid in my way... myself.