Beliefs

[ErikSL]

lennon said it best

 

[Doomtroll]

lennon said it best

Yeah and now he's dead.

 

[Svarthjärtad]

I cannot agree with you more that what you just said about sin being that you disrespect life in general.
In my opinion, life is too short and great to stupid or self-deceitful. Well... deceitful in general - of yourself or others. Why do people throw their life away and end up like trash? Again... another great mystery.
For me, I love life. No matter how bad things may get at times, I can still say that I love it. I treat life and nature with respect to the fullest. Life is beautiful. WHen I say "life", I mean your own, others' lives, nature, the life of other organisms. Yesterday, we got soo much snow, I couldn't leave my house. It pissed me off I guess, but looking around, seeing nature in effect, I realized that this isn't a bad moment, but good! Mother Nature is still alive and kickin' and still doing her job of giving us winter and making sure we're still alive.
Heh... I'm going to stop here before I ramble on for two hours, taking up the page. Haha.

 

[Doomtroll]

I love life a lot, and despite my bitching or whining I appreciate it a lot.
For the record you have to remember, the reason why people throw away their lives for religion is simply because they fear for their immortal soul. If you genuinely believe there is something beyond death and you'll be punished or rewarded for your actions in life, then you're going to try and live your entire life devoted to making sure you're immortal soul is rewarded.

 

[Vampyrian]

These cases are nothing but pure faggotry. Nothing can excuse this, but I do not view this as something directly descended from religion, but mostly from stupidity. I know plenty of stupid atheists as well, these people aren't any different.

Well 'stupid atheists' don't kill people and don't control the world. You can't really compare the 'evils' of both sides You have an insane lot of people in this world who would die for their beliefs. Especially the radical Muslim extremists, but if you've seen documentaries like 'Jesus Camp', you can get the idea that there's radical people coming up in Christianity as well and since 44% of the American populace more or less believe that Jesus will come back in their lifetime to carry them up into Heaven and you have that 'insane lot' of people in the Muslim world who also believe that if they die for their religion, 72 or so virgins await them in the afterlife,... These people with their itchy trigger fingers on quite a few WMDs... Nothing good can come of it. Back during the Cuban Missile Crisis, fear of death saved the world IMO, but in this day and age, if something like that was to happen today... between two major world religions, who both strive to please their gods (in a very skewed way), I really don't see a happy outcome. Might seem a bit far-fetched, but it's a very plausible scenario Of course not that simple, but... Scary So that roughly covers the insane Muslim radicals and crazy Christian evangelicals. What's my beef with Judaism? Circumcision. It's barbaric! A true human rights violation.

 

[Agah]

I think of all religions as something the people used to describe what happened around them, like when floods killed a bunch of people. And I don't see why we in 2007 should have any religions when it's so obvious that science has taken over it's role.

You should se a movie called Zeitgeist ( www.zeitgeistmovie.com ) to learn how the whole thing about Jesus was made up.

 

[Vampyrian]

I think of all religions as something the people used to describe what happened around them, like when floods killed a bunch of people. And I don't see why we in 2007 should have any religions when it's so obvious that science has taken over it's role.

EXACTLY! That's what I've been saying all along, man. In an age of science and reason, there should be no need for any religion or supernatural belief. Because it only hinders mankind.

 

[Alec Walter Conway]

EXACTLY! That's what I've been saying all along, man. In an age of science and reason, there should be no need for any religion or supernatural belief. Because it only hinders mankind.

The only problem I have with our day and age is that if you can't prove anything mathematically, scientifically, out of any doubt, then you're not taken seriously by other people.

I'm thinking about stuff that is obvious, in our faces, but since it can't be proven in a scientific way, it is left in the dark.

We may just be over-rating science sometimes.

SOMETIMES.

I don't believe in any God as an individual, intelligent, supernatural creature, but instead just as pagan deities are to me poetic expressions of various aspects of humanity and nature

Precisely my view.

Poetic expressions of various aspects of humanity and nature. Of existence.

 

[Vampyrian]

What stuff? What still isn't proven, will be proven as science evolves I'm sure. A century ago, scientists knew considerably less than scientists today. And a century later, I'm sure scientists will know much more, be able to prove much more, than scientists can now. Unless religion prevails. Let's hope not. In ages past, many now scientifically explained phenomenons were explained as 'God did it.' (or something similar), because people didn't know any better way of explaining them. It's seems utterly stupid to me, that we should use the same way of thinking today for the of course many still (yet) unexplained phenomenons in this world.

Oh and by all means, everybody should see Zeitgeist. You can watch the whole documentary on the website Agah provided.

 

[Laila Lumberjack]

I'm a Germanic heathen. Basically it's the same as Asatru but I live in the Netherlands so I like to name my belief in my own language and worship the gods of my own grounds.

@ Vampyrian
How can you judge something you have absolutely no knowledge of? Sure, there may not be any full scientific evidence for the excistence of gods or other higher beings, but this leads tot the only possible conclusion: we can't be sure if they excist. That's why it's a matter of belief.
Also, one doesn't chose to believe in something. One simply does or doesnt. It seems like the only religion you know anyting of is christianity. But values that belong to religions of Semitic origin differ a LOT from those of Indo-European origin. Germanic heathens don't lay their fate in the hands of the gods, they are responsible for their own deeds. The Christian God watches over his sheep, but pagans don't have a shepherd like that. We live the way of nature, we don't stay between fences but explore life, afterlife and all in between.
Like you I don't agree with people blowing them selves up among other people who think different. I hate their disrespect towards other peoples beliefs, I hate the way they have knowledge of 'the only truth', just like you think you know the truth: that there is no thing beyond mortal flesh and everyone who thinks something else is wrong.
What is truth? There are as many truths as there are people for truth is empiric. We may assumethat people can recognise thruth at the moment they behold or experience it. However, everybodies experience is diffirent and so differs everybody's truth.
So, not religion itself is bad, but the conviction that you hold THE truth and that everybody should be converted to that truth.


@Svarthjärtad

I already know that when I die, may my soul be carried to Valhalla, that's no question.

Isn't it? This sounds a bit conceited to me, that at this point you can already tell with such centainty you've earned your place among the gods in Valhalla.
A hero as great as Siegfried went to Hel, even Wodans own son Baldr couldn't stay in Valhalla after is death. Tell me, what have you done in life so far, that you can be so sure Hella's realm won't be yours once you've died?

@Alec Walter Conway

And thats another thing I like about pagan religions : you practice in whatever way you want, whatever way you think is best, whatever way makes the most sense to you. So in some way, everybody is a pagan, even atheists and agnostics : they're just being pagan in their own way like everyone has a right to, but their way consists in doing and believing in nothing at all.

That's one major misunderstanding made very often nowadays. Our ancestors did have strict rules regarding different cults, rituals and the worship of the gods. Asatru is a traditional pagan religion where traditions ofcourse, play a big role.
For people who don't mind traditions that much, who don't care to find out about pre-Christian paganism, for those who just want to believe in whatever suits them and practice whatever they like; Please just call yourself neopagan or something like that.

Oh and, I don't pray to anyone, or anything. I relate to concepts and idea, I honor ancestors and the Gods in my own ways, but I don't pray. Praying, kneeling, thats for the masses.

Praying is just one way of communicating with the gods, I don't see why anything would be wrong with that. On the contrary; among pagans, it is very much aimed to strenghten your bond with the gods. The same for kneeling. I don't like the Christian 'kneeling pose' with the head down, showing how much unworthy and such we people are, but I have no ploblem with the Indo-European custom; close to the earth, with head and hand directed towards the sky. We are not unworthy, we're just not a powerful as the gods.


I hope I could make myselve clear, it's always more difficult writing in another language than my native one.

 

[darcy]

I think of all religions as something the people used to describe what happened around them, like when floods killed a bunch of people. And I don't see why we in 2007 should have any religions when it's so obvious that science has taken over it's role.

But the true role of religion or belief is not to teach what we learn from science, it's to provide meaning and purpose to our lives. The whole concept that if some natural phenomenon is unexplained, that means God did it, is just a by-product of the church's previous total domination of culture, which we can happily shed while still maintaining our spiritual connection to the world in a more pure and personal fashion.

 

[Naglfar]

Should probably distinguish between religion as an organized structure and personal beliefs, including religious ones. I'm irreligious and wary of religious as institutions and groups of people, but when you say something like MANG, RELIGION SUCKS, usually the defense of it comes from individuals who have their personal beliefs invested in it. Thus they take offense.

At any rate, whatever a person believes, they believe. Irrational faith in scientific progress and the rationality of man led to things like World War I and global warming, so I wouldn't posit this is a belief vs reason issue. Human beings get in trouble when they refuse to think otherwise or find fault in their own logic. Religion at a group level, as an institution, is about reinforcing beliefs through doctrine, and causes people to become touchy and uncritical of their beliefs.

 

[ErikSL]

that zeitgeist movie was good

 

[Naglfar]

I hope I could make myselve clear, it's always more difficult writing in another language than my native one.

crystal, your english is fluent =)

 

[Alec Walter Conway]

@Walkyr

That was a very enlightening post you sent, though I'd like to clarify a few things. Maybe you simply misunderstood my points because of the language barrier.

That's one major misunderstanding made very often nowadays. Our ancestors did have strict rules regarding different cults, rituals and the worship of the gods. Asatru is a traditional pagan religion where traditions ofcourse, play a big role.
For people who don't mind traditions that much, who don't care to find out about pre-Christian paganism, for those who just want to believe in whatever suits them and practice whatever they like; Please just call yourself neopagan or something like that.

Of course I know there are traditions and guide lines, and of course I'm constantly reading about the subject, trying to find out more. But in Christianity, not going to church every sunday doesn't make you any less christian than someone who does go to church every sunday ; the same way, deciding that a certain pagan tradition doesn't suit your way of life and leaving it aside won't make you a bad pagan.

The more things I discover about Ásatrú, the more interrest I get in the whole concept and the prouder I am to identify myself to it.

Praying is just one way of communicating with the gods, I don't see why anything would be wrong with that. On the contrary; among pagans, it is very much aimed to strenghten your bond with the gods. The same for kneeling. I don't like the Christian 'kneeling pose' with the head down, showing how much unworthy and such we people are, but I have no ploblem with the Indo-European custom; close to the earth, with head and hand directed towards the sky. We are not unworthy, we're just not a powerful as the gods.

I strenghten my bonds with the Gods in my own ways, I read and write about them, I think of what they represent, etc. I was just never big on all the praying and kneeling stuff, call this a christianity-induced trauma. And anyway, who am I to ask anything of the Gods. I thank them for what they do send my way, and thats that.

I hope I could make myselve clear, it's always more difficult writing in another language than my native one.

Your english is crystal clear, you shouldn't worry about it

 

[Lord Vengeance]

....heh,well.....

first off bravo to Walkyr for the poignant redaction of ancient faiths,and how they fare with our interpretation and iteration of modern faiths;the human sacrifice was as mundane a ritual to the gaelic pagans who slit the throats of their brethren,cast into the peat moss,singing to the moon god,in hopes for a good harvest...as a catholic kneeling before a statue of mary and eating a cracker.
Though im with most of the posters including Alec and their choice of neo-paganism and flexible self direction in matters of belief.For in our modern era we can afford such things as lack of common rituals and dogma.We can coalesce around other things like Vintersorgs music,environmental matters(Alec =P ),political leanings,or "great taste...less filling".Take away our modern graces...And that sacrifice will happen next full moon,those prayers will be recited,the slow march of the pious will start again.So while we wallow in our discontent(i am guilty of this also),lets not forget we all have this choice to yearn for long dead doctrines or obscure philosophies,and that to actually live in homogenies of them that choice would be gone.

ohh and to my beliefs...i guess im part LeVeyan part theistic satanist,not in the mystical or biblical way.just in the vehement objectivist,social darwinist sort of way.Though i pay great homage to my ancestry,whom are from Sweden,and their roots.I love the many pagan cultures.Especially the Astaru.My cousins names are Thor,Odin,Lars and Heidr..and they where all born here in the states,but the heritage runs thick still.I also understand the christian and judean faiths,and though i dont believe any of the monotheistic tractates,i am not so wise as to proclaim my absolute beliefs...correct.

this is another really good topic.

and by the way...secularism has spawned the greatest monsters in history.Stalin,Mao,Pol Pot,Kim Il Sung,Kim Jong Il,Castro..hell just stalin alone has wiped out more of his own people than all the other holy wars combined.
so what im saying is...as long as the christians stay benevolent and let us worship our own way,and still maintain civil society;amen.

 

[Naglfar]

and by the way...secularism has spawned the greatest monsters in history.Stalin,Mao,Pol Pot,Kim Il Sung,Kim Jong Il,Castro..hell just stalin alone has wiped out more of his own people than all the other holy wars combined.

those things wweren't done in the name of secularism, rather, an irrational belief in the modernizing powers of Communism (Mao / Pol Pot) or a paranoid quest for personal security and the perpetuation of personal power (Stalin / Kim Jong Il)

they are, if anything, similar to religion in that ideology played a fundamental role in justifying mass murder =)

 

[Lord Vengeance]

for the sake of secularism,those whose god(s)/faith/doctrine/belief rested above the state/politboro/cause had to be purged by monsters.

i think its FAR worse that millions upon millions had to die as an afterthought,a slight speed bump on the road to a secularized society.As opposed to an intent,a doxy to kill those who disagree.

so you are right...those were not done in the name of...the excuse those leaders used was for the sake of.Only a monster would make an excuse,when a religious leader(Charles Martel,Saladin,King Bjorn,etc) killed masses...at least they arent making excuses heh.

 

[Naglfar]

well, what i mean is that secularism isn't the ideological mechanism that identified the enemies in those cases

it's also unfair to compare the mass murder of class enemies in the 20th century to religious wars, because religious wars occurred before total war and the technology for total war and genocide was really available

im sure the inquisition would have wiped out every jew and moor in spain if they had gas chambers and modern means of communication =)

we digress, anyway, i got your point heh

 

[ErikSL]

upon further inspection...the zeitgeist movie was one of the best films ive ever seen. anyone who hasn't seen it should.