Beliefs

[Qu Appelle]

Hi! I'm a Christian.

*waits for the screaming to stop*

I'm actually a very liberal Christian; I'm a member of the Episcopal Church of the USA. (This is a liberal branch of Protestantism that is aligned with the Church of England.) To roughly break it down, we believe in uniting together in common prayer, not under a common dogma. This leads to very liberal views when it comes to abortion and homosexuality. We are heavily involved in environmental, animal, and human rights causes, we ordain women as well as gay and lesbian members as priests and bishops, we run soup kitchens and homeless shelters, etc.

Basically, I believe in the type of Christianity that I believe Jesus *actually* practiced (feeding the poor, etc.), and the type of Christianity that, unfortunately, most Christians no longer believe in, at least in the US. I do have a problem with how a lot of the Evangelical denominations are hijacking Christianity, and doing evil things in the name of the faith. All I can do is try to counteract that with good deeds, and to show by example that people can be Christians without being Assholes about it.

I'd love to study it further, in fact, just last month I travelled down to Berkeley, California to talk to a couple of Seminaries about their grad school programs. And I picked up a Vintersorg CD I didn't yet have

 

[Det Som Engang Var]

It's a shame they aren't all like you.

 

[Agah]

But the true role of religion or belief is not to teach what we learn from science, it's to provide meaning and purpose to our lives. The whole concept that if some natural phenomenon is unexplained, that means God did it, is just a by-product of the church's previous total domination of culture, which we can happily shed while still maintaining our spiritual connection to the world in a more pure and personal fashion.

Well, if you feel that you need a meaning and purpose to your life that's okay to me, but I personally never felt like I needed that, I just go about with my life trying to make the best of it without the involvement of any higher beings or forces.

 

[Qu Appelle]

It's a shame they aren't all like you.

Thanks! I try my best.

It's also particularly fun to talk to prostelyzers on the street. I'm just a magnet to them.

"Do you believe in the Gospel of Jesus Christ?"
I'll be standing there in an Immortal shirt or something (Oh that band is fun!), and they'll approach me.
"Yes."
"...oh."

 

[Naglfar]

Hi! I'm a Christian.

*waits for the screaming to stop*

I'm actually a very liberal Christian; I'm a member of the Episcopal Church of the USA. (This is a liberal branch of Protestantism that is aligned with the Church of England.) To roughly break it down, we believe in uniting together in common prayer, not under a common dogma. This leads to very liberal views when it comes to abortion and homosexuality. We are heavily involved in environmental, animal, and human rights causes, we ordain women as well as gay and lesbian members as priests and bishops, we run soup kitchens and homeless shelters, etc.

Basically, I believe in the type of Christianity that I believe Jesus *actually* practiced (feeding the poor, etc.), and the type of Christianity that, unfortunately, most Christians no longer believe in, at least in the US. I do have a problem with how a lot of the Evangelical denominations are hijacking Christianity, and doing evil things in the name of the faith. All I can do is try to counteract that with good deeds, and to show by example that people can be Christians without being Assholes about it.

I'd love to study it further, in fact, just last month I travelled down to Berkeley, California to talk to a couple of Seminaries about their grad school programs. And I picked up a Vintersorg CD I didn't yet have

Heh, I'm in San Francisco at the moment. =)

What programs were you looking at? I'm currently getting my history Ph.D. back on the east coast (I go back on the 12th of Jan). I went to Berkeley for the first time a couple of weeks ago. I thought it's quaint how you can just put a spliff in your mouth and smoke weed in the middle of the street.

It's not surprising to have non-nutty Christians... even conservative Christians who mind their own business and don't preach are alright. My grandparents are very religious and I've never even had a religious conversation with them in my entire life. And we're talked about plenty of things (and they're Democrats!).

When you spend 7+ years on college campuses like I have, you also get used to Quakers and Unitarians, who are more akin to Christian Buddhists than anything.

 

[Qu Appelle]

Heh, I'm in San Francisco at the moment. =)

What programs were you looking at? I'm currently getting my history Ph.D. back on the east coast (I go back on the 12th of Jan). I went to Berkeley for the first time a couple of weeks ago. I thought it's quaint how you can just put a spliff in your mouth and smoke weed in the middle of the street.

It's not surprising to have non-nutty Christians... even conservative Christians who mind their own business and don't preach are alright. My grandparents are very religious and I've never even had a religious conversation with them in my entire life. And we're talked about plenty of things (and they're Democrats!).

When you spend 7+ years on college campuses like I have, you also get used to Quakers and Unitarians, who are more akin to Christian Buddhists than anything.

Sweet!

I'm looking at these three schools in particular: Church Divinity School of the Pacific (Episcopalian), Starr King (Unitarian), and Pacific Lutheran School of Theology. (They are the ELCA branch of Lutheranism, which is a liberal branch of the denomination). And I just *love* the Buddhists. I just went to a talk on meditation a couple nights ago with Noah Levine, and he mentioned that many people who aren't 'Buddhist' per se take in the principles of Buddhism, and are able to work with them in their own religions traditions.

I'm sort of at a crossroads where I've determind what I want to study, but what do I want to do with it? Pastor? Teach? Ph.D Studies and go into Academics? Become a nun? Nomad? The angle I want to approach is more of an Anthropological study of religion, so a Seminary may not even be the right place for me. But, the more I read and talk to people and travel around (in the spirit simulator! ), the more I learn.

And...I think we put both the Asatruar and Mr. V to sleep by this discussion

 

[darcy]

When you spend 7+ years on college campuses like I have, you also get used to Quakers and Unitarians, who are more akin to Christian Buddhists than anything.

Heh, yeah.

 

[Naglfar]

Yeah, the question of how far to take your studies is pretty important. A friend of mine, very cool Swedish dude, just left my program (such a shame...) and his thing was history of religion. I don't know what he's doing now, but I don't think he found history as a discipline exactly where he wanted to take his religious studies. I've actually never talked to him about it, but I did have this conversation with my dorm resident head back in college who was at the Divinity School at the University of Chicago (where I went for college) for a Ph.D. program. He was more a philosopher than anything (he used to stop by our apartment / dorm room and just talk about Heidegger and Arendt), so the Ph.D. program seemed like a natural environment for him.

You might be well off getting an M.A. and then being a pastor (or a nomad!) for a while if you're undecided. It costs a lot more than committing to a 4-6 year program (Ph.D. programs, especially the top ones, often cover tuition and give a stipend), but you get both the intellectual benefit of graduate coursework and real world experience after. Then again, if you're interested in anthropological work, I would look into Ph.D. programs. The only concrete suggestion I can think of is that you look into divinity schools, like you're doing now, and not anthropology programs. Anthropologists are like historians in that they have a certain... um... way of doing things, and if you're not an anthropologist at heart, you might find the work unpalatable! Just don't become a nun... like King Diamond says... nuns have no fun!

I'm sure Mr.V doesn't find it boring, I think he's a grad student himself, if I'm correct (he's not reading this at any rate; too busy MAKING MUSIC I HOPE ahehe).

 

[The Minds Eye]

Hi! I'm a Christian.

*waits for the screaming to stop*

I'm actually a very liberal Christian; This leads to very liberal views when it comes to abortion and homosexuality.

Just curious, if Jesus was Jewish, Gods people are the Jews and he lived in the land of Israel then why would he be a christian?

An interesting concept is that when the Greeks translated the ancient scrolls they changed alot of the meanings, syntax's, tenses etc and were particially anti-semitic and wanted to assimilate their pagan religion which in turn tainted the original translation of the bible.


Also doesn't it specificially say in the bible that homosexuality is a sin?

 

[Doomtroll]

Just curious, if Jesus was Jewish, Gods people are the Jews and he lived in the land of Israel then why would he be a christian?

He wasn't a Christian.
Jesus was supposed to be "The Son of God" aka. God's human form to guide his people or some crap. Muslims believe Jesus wasn't "God's Son" and instead was just a prophet like Abraham, Moses and their own Mohammed.

Christianity is based around worshipping Jesus. Jesus wasn't a Christian, he's the head figure for that religion, he was Jewish and just had a religion formed around him for his magic tricks, see: Life of Brian. As is Mohammed for Muslims, Mohammed wasn't a Muslim, he created Islam. I think the only prophets to have helped form religions have been Abraham (Judaism), Jesus (Christianity) and Mohammed (Islam), the others seemed to not make an impact.

Also I'm going to ignore this thread, I fail at discussing religion.

 

[Naglfar]

RELIGION IS THE HAMBURGER HELPER OF INTELLECTUAL DISCOURSE

 

[Qu Appelle]

Just curious, if Jesus was Jewish, Gods people are the Jews and he lived in the land of Israel then why would he be a christian?

An interesting concept is that when the Greeks translated the ancient scrolls they changed alot of the meanings, syntax's, tenses etc and were particially anti-semitic and wanted to assimilate their pagan religion which in turn tainted the original translation of the bible.


Also doesn't it specificially say in the bible that homosexuality is a sin?

Oh, I'll try to take these, but I'm no theologian. Yet.

1. Jesus Christ, in coming down from Heaven and declaring himself the Son of God, then started his own religion - Christianity. Obviously, not all follow it, and not all Jews deem him the Messiah. I don't exactly know how or why it became the massive religious phenomenon that it did, but it did. And I know that it railroaded over pagan religions in the process, and I don't like that at all. This is why I joined a branch that emphasizes human rights action over prostelyzation.

2. I think you answered your own question here. The scrolls and writings have gone through so many translations that some of the more subtle cultural and linguistic meanings have been lost. Plus, we are now imprinting our own In regards to the homosexuality bit, there's two answers I generally have.

a. For the OT one, the main 'bad' saying about Homosexuality is in the book of Leviticus - which is essentially a list of laws and rules that the Jewish people should follow. Well, when Jesus came into being, he did away with all of that - no more holding of the dietary restrictions (such as no pork), clothing restrictions, etc - and that, according to many people, includes the passage on homosexuality. I like to ask Fundies who quote that when they've had bacon last

b. Also, I have heard talks from some scholars and theologians about Homosexuality and the Bible, and many have said that the cultural mores back then had a different idea of 'homosexual behaviour', and that the passages as they were written in the times of Jesus and Moses probably referred to prostitution and/or male rape - not a consensual, equal relationship between two people of the same gender.

Hope that helps somewhat

 

[The Minds Eye]

Christianity is based around worshipping Jesus. Jesus wasn't a Christian, he's the head figure for that religion, he was Jewish and just had a religion formed around him for his magic tricks

Um so wouldn't it therefore be smarter for Christians to follow the religion he himself followed and practiced rather than a religion based around him?
If he is the son of God and he practices a religion why would you not follow his own religion rather than the religion of which was based around him by someone else?


Thanks for the input guys!

 

[Naglfar]

Try thinking of religion as something that is partly political and cultural, not just doctrinial. The substance of its text and its structure changes over time. So it's quite natural that say, a group of people in 2007 prefer to focus on the general opposition to homosexuality that exists in certain parts of the bible, rather than the implicit repudiation of the old Testament's position homosexuality in Jesus' teachings. This opposition comes from interpretation of doctrine, and the basis of this interpretation has more to do with social, cultural, and political values than an attempt to understand doctrine and writings within religious texts.

 

[Doomtroll]

Um so wouldn't it therefore be smarter for Christians to follow the religion he himself followed and practiced rather than a religion based around him?
If he is the son of God and he practices a religion why would you not follow his own religion rather than the religion of which was based around him by someone else?


Thanks for the input guys!

Look at modern "christian" cults. There is always a leading figure who claims to be some sort of prophet and people follow them and worship them (while still worshipping god). When you believe that this human is the mortal representation of god, you're going to worship them and follow every word, thus creating a new belief system that's different from the traditional. I'm sure that "Christians" still believed in the same as Jews, just Jesus was their prophet and what they believed to be the mortal representation of god. I guess Jews saw someone like Jesus as modern Christians (and even just general public) saw David Koresh. Nothing more than nonsense, Only difference is Jesus made a bigger impact than David Koresh. (then again, who knows, in another 2,000 years the Earth's ruling religion could be that worshipping David Koresh).

The problem with religions is getting the actual beliefs and systems mixed up. Each Abrahamic religion follows the same basic belief that there is a God, a "heaven" and "hell" and the prophets (although Jews deny the existence of Jesus and Mohammed if I recall, but I'm not entirely sure). But each religion has different rules and ways of worship and this is what makes them so far apart. Judiasm and Christianity have a closer connection with their rules of worship, the 10 commandments being a huge connection for them, as Islam does not follow them from what I know (excuse me if I'm wrong, I'm not as familiar with Islam).

Also you've got to remember how much religious documents were changed over time. Often by leaders or high religious figures who felt that editing the documents could benefit themselves or their Country. What better way to make people do stuff than to threaten their immortal soul? The whole concept of things like "The Devil" and "Limbo" were created to scare people in to doing things. Limbo being something to scare parents into baptising their children.

 

[Qu Appelle]

The problem with religions is getting the actual beliefs and systems mixed up. Each Abrahamic religion follows the same basic belief that there is a God, a "heaven" and "hell" and the prophets (although Jews deny the existence of Jesus and Mohammed if I recall, but I'm not entirely sure).

Don't worry - people spend decades studying this stuff; for being on a metal board, I think we're doing a great job of discussing this! I'm the first to admit that it gets really REALLY confusing at times.

Actually, as I understand it, they don't deny that Jesus and Mohammad existed - they just don't think that these two people were the Messiah. Thus, they are still waiting for him.

 

[Det Som Engang Var]

Right.

 

[darcy]

Regarding the gay thing- there are 2 verses in the Bible that may or may not refer to steamy, greased-up man-on-man action. There are hundreds about helping the poor and needy and loving one another like family. I don't think the text is all bad.

 

[Naglfar]

Religious texts are long, convoluted, and contradictory. It's not a matter of them being bad or not, they're just so open ended there's practically infinite space for interpretation. So if you have one passage in a few thousand that looks down on gays, and socially being gay is taboo, then people will focus on it. Desmond Tutu recently unloaded on the Church in general for focusing on homosexuality, because it seemed to him that it was unwarranted attention to people's lifestyles at the cost of more pressing issues.

 

[darcy]

You're totally right. I don't think it's a good idea to live your life based on a book, though there's nothing wrong with reading them.