Can In Flames be called In Flames these days?

[Jester Slave]

I thought ASOP was the lowest point for In Flames, but SC now takes that crown. We should be safe for the next album, but if not, I think it may be the end.

The end for you, maybe. They clearly showed that even when touring a "terrible, 0/10" record they still attract people. I'm pretty sure IF has already reached the status where the concert hosts don't even give a flying fuck about what are they doing now. They know it's an established name, they know their hits make everyone wet, and they know they bring people - and money - in. Their next record might as well has 10 songs, on which Anders trying to sing "I Will Always Love You", while Björn is playing on a broken banjo. Who cares, you'll still see them even headlining festivals.

I think that they first tried to reach to non-melodeath fans, and now they're trying to reach to non-metal fans.

What the F. Take This Life and Only For The Weak are one of the most commercialized heavy tracks I know. Those are the songs you can show your "EDM ALL NIGHT BABY, WOOOOOOOOOO, MARTIN GARRIIIIIIIIIXXX AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHH" friends and they will dig it. The reaching out happened like 15 years ago.

Now, show Rusted Nail or Everything's Gone to some non-metal guys and watch their emotionless face. Yeah, Through Oblivion is different, but go back to 2011 and show them Through Oblivion'11, also known as Liberation, and you'll have the same (either positive or negative) responses.

IF are past the point where they have to attract anyone. They already lived their life, and even their future is cemented in stone, because a.) IF will sell shows, no matter what b.) they have enterprises on the sideline, so they can surely retire in a home with 2 jacuzzis.

Whenever they make a new record now, it's really all about them. SOAPF was different, since all eyes were on them, hoping to crash and burn after Jesper, the "creative thunder" as I like to call him, left.

 

[DE4life]

Don't forget that Jesper has recently admitted his problem with depression. I've been arguing about his childish outbursts, but that actually explained everything. Now, I have lived with someone suffering from depression, and in case you don't know, it's like hell. You can grow to live with that person, but if you actually want to be close with them, like working together, you have to be the most patient man in the world. Beyond every expectation actually. I don't think Jesper wanted to leave In Flames, he just became a huge ass obstacle for everyone. If you suffer from depression, your self-esteem is non-existent and you project it onto others all the time. Now add alcohol, his coping method in the mix, and that's not exactly the recipe for a fun time.

As an apparent expert on depression, maybe you should have factored this possibility in before shitting all over him in the other thread.

For the record, not every depressed person projects non-existent self-esteem onto others all the time. That's a stereotype which makes diagnosing people with depression harder, as there are plenty of people who appear perfectly normal on the outside but are struggling hugely on the inside. It's a very complex illness that you're trying to put into a very small box.

The end for you, maybe.

Of course. In the context of that post I wouldn't have been talking about the band.

 

[Darth Jester]

Even the guys who bash on commercially successful IF are generally like SOAPF, so based on this, you are actually representing one of the most radical views towards IF. That alone should be a signal for you.

And how can you take seriously what I just quoted from you? If Jesper was the driving force, basically none of the albums post Clayman would exist, though even Clayman is debatable. Jesper and Björn did the music, and since I've never been there to any of their recording sessions, but neither you, let's assume their contribution musically has been closer to 50-50, than, let's say, 80-20 - a ratio where we could call Jesper a driving force. Now add Anders to the mix, who can be most obviously blamed or praised for the break up with Fredrik Nordström and his production, which, if after Clayman people weren't sure enough, meant a quite big change in their style.

The music remained heavy and melodic, so it's not like you can point your finger on R2R and say "okay, this is where melodic death-metal stops!" Especially since that album had some of the heaviest stuff in the discography up to that point.

Anyway, documentaries 30 years from now decide when did the melodic death-metal died out from IF. The point is, In Flames was Jesper, Björn and Anders, so don't put Jesper on a pedestal. Jesper's last real album was CC, you can really feel on that record that shit has been put together. Even according to Jesper, he did not enjoy recording ASOP as well, the differences between the band members (or some of them, once again, none of us knows The truth) have reached the point where they hated to work each other. This is what Anders meant with his friendship statement about Jesper in one of his interview: it's basically like a marriage gone wrong; if you finally divorce, you can actually remain friends and hang out and laugh and what not, because you love each other in a way, but if you force yourself to stay in the same house with the same problems for ever and ever, then you can't help but hate the other one.

Don't forget that Jesper has recently admitted his problem with depression. I've been arguing about his childish outbursts, but that actually explained everything. Now, I have lived with someone suffering from depression, and in case you don't know, it's like hell. You can grow to live with that person, but if you actually want to be close with them, like working together, you have to be the most patient man in the world. Beyond every expectation actually. I don't think Jesper wanted to leave In Flames, he just became a huge ass obstacle for everyone. If you suffer from depression, your self-esteem is non-existent and you project it onto others all the time. Now add alcohol, his coping method in the mix, and that's not exactly the recipe for a fun time.

Knowing all this, after ASOP I wouldn't even say they lost 33% of the creative force behind their music. Not only Jesper clearly did not like to contribute to ASOP - he said it was a chore, like a mundane job or sth -, Anders and Björn must've still made compromises because of him.

I appreciate that you try to apply math on humans, but it's not how it works. You and me are not a stream of 1s and 0s.

Anyway, pointless to reply to you, because you are either legitimate dumb (or very young, but that's like the same), or just trolling around acting as "NO1 IF FAN SINCE 1940!!!" edit: unless you actually try, of course. In no way would I want to shut down anyone, but at this point, all you did so far is digging your nose without even trying.

When I talk about In Flames, I mean the 90s band that was actually good, not the post year 2000 thingy.

For ME, In Flames was 'The Jester Race', 'Whoracle' and some of 'Colony', but what came after that.. just no. Although, Clayman might have had some good things in it... don't remember anymore, it's been a while since it rolled in my player.

That's how I see and like In Flames, what they did back in the day, for the rest, the last 15 years, not that interested.

 

[Jester Slave]

As an apparent expert on depression, maybe you should have factored this possibility in before shitting all over him in the other thread.

For the record, not every depressed person projects non-existent self-esteem onto others all the time. That's a stereotype which makes diagnosing people with depression harder, as there are plenty of people who appear perfectly normal on the outside but are struggling hugely on the inside. It's a very complex illness that you're trying to put into a very small box.

Hindsight is 10/10.

Being in a band, making decisions and producing music is a rather intimate thing, so the band members surely experienced the results of Jesper's depression in one way or another.

When I talk about In Flames, I mean the 90s band that was actually good, not the post year 2000 thingy.

For ME, In Flames was 'The Jester Race', 'Whoracle' and some of 'Colony', but what came after that.. just no. Although, Clayman might have had some good things in it... don't remember anymore, it's been a while since it rolled in my player.

That's how I see and like In Flames, what they did back in the day, for the rest, the last 15 years, not that interested.

Well, this sums it up. It's beyond me how you couldn't get over it, because 15 years is enough to even cure heartbreaks, but all right. Keep fighting.

 

[eochaid]

The end for you, maybe. They clearly showed that even when touring a "terrible, 0/10" record they still attract people. I'm pretty sure IF has already reached the status where the concert hosts don't even give a flying fuck about what are they doing now. They know it's an established name, they know their hits make everyone wet, and they know they bring people - and money - in. Their next record might as well has 10 songs, on which Anders trying to sing "I Will Always Love You", while Björn is playing on a broken banjo. Who cares, you'll still see them even headlining festivals.

What the F. Take This Life and Only For The Weak are one of the most commercialized heavy tracks I know. Those are the songs you can show your "EDM ALL NIGHT BABY, WOOOOOOOOOO, MARTIN GARRIIIIIIIIIXXX AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHH" friends and they will dig it. The reaching out happened like 15 years ago.

Now, show Rusted Nail or Everything's Gone to some non-metal guys and watch their emotionless face. Yeah, Through Oblivion is different, but go back to 2011 and show them Through Oblivion'11, also known as Liberation, and you'll have the same (either positive or negative) responses.

IF are past the point where they have to attract anyone. They already lived their life, and even their future is cemented in stone, because a.) IF will sell shows, no matter what b.) they have enterprises on the sideline, so they can surely retire in a home with 2 jacuzzis.

Whenever they make a new record now, it's really all about them. SOAPF was different, since all eyes were on them, hoping to crash and burn after Jesper, the "creative thunder" as I like to call him, left.

When the senoirs are talking the juniors must just shut up their mouths.

 

[Jester Slave]

When the senoirs are talking the juniors must just shut up their mouths.

Hate to be the one, but... http://whatyearisit.info/

And yes, Franco is dead, sorry.

 

[eochaid]

Hate to be the one, but... http://whatyearisit.info/

And yes, Franco is dead, sorry.

But your fascist president is still alive.

Ah, just for you to know. THat guy does not resemble anything like me. I am more hairy.

 

[Jester Slave]

But your fascist president is still alive.

YAY, WE ARE FAMOUS!! Finally, the recognition our amazing(ly shitty) country deserved!

 

[DE4life]

Hindsight is 10/10.

Indeed. Hopefully you ponder that.

Anyway, yes, I'm sure the band was affected by Jesper's issues. I was more annoyed with your blanket statement about people with depression than your opinion on Jesper.

 

[Darth Jester]

.Well, this sums it up. It's beyond me how you couldn't get over it, because 15 years is enough to even cure heartbreaks, but all right. Keep fighting.

I HAVE gotten over it, what the good In Flames sometimes was, there's no going back.

Just saying, like the thread title says, is there anything in common with IF of yesterday and what it is today... not much.

 

[Jester Slave]

Indeed. Hopefully you ponder that.

Anyway, yes, I'm sure the band was affected by Jesper's issues. I was more annoyed with your blanket statement about people with depression than your opinion on Jesper.

Depressed people are hard to live and/or work with. Whether they drag you down with their overall negativity and low self-esteem, or they cope by running into some addiction... the end result is all the same. It will take a toll on you.

And I don't ponder over that, it is Jesper who made a fool out of himself. I don't just suddenly give a pass on all of his outbursts and change of colors just because his ill. I'm not supporting that kind of mentality, it's not helpful for anyone, not even for Jesper.

(Conditions like Tourette syndrome are different, obviously.)

 

[DE4life]

Depressed people are hard to live and/or work with. Whether they drag you down with their overall negativity and low self-esteem, or they cope by running into some addiction... the end result is all the same. It will take a toll on you.

Yeah, because all depression and all depressed people are the same. Stop talking utter shit, you're sounding even dumber than usual.

 

[Jester Slave]

Yeah, because all depression and all depressed people are the same. Stop talking utter shit, you're sounding even dumber than usual.

No one said they are the same; but if you are implying some of them are easy to live with, then you are mistaking "OMG I'M 15 AND I'M DEPRESSED, LOOK, I WILL TOTALLY TAKE 2 XANAXES NOW!!" with actual clinical depression.

There is no such thing as happy depression, even if you'd like it so.

edit: and I'm talking about living with the person (touring for years, recording albums), not meeting Johnny in every two weeks for three hours, then being surprised when you hear he killed himself.

 

[DE4life]

No one said they are the same; but if you are implying some of them are easy to live with, then you are mistaking "OMG I'M 15 AND I'M DEPRESSED, LOOK, I WILL TOTALLY TAKE 2 XANAXES NOW!!" with actual clinical depression.

There is no such thing as happy depression, even if you'd like it so.

edit: and I'm talking about living with the person (touring for years, recording albums), not meeting Johnny in every two weeks for three hours, then being surprised when you hear he killed himself.

There's no way you're older than 15. If you are then wow.

 

[Jester Slave]

There's no way you're older than 15. If you are then wow.

Maybe meet someone with actual depression, then this conversation can continue. Hell, you don't even need to dig deeper than the basic wikipedia description of it to be dragged down from your high horse.

But no, actually, you better not meet with anyone suffering from it. It might be a bit awkward when you start nagging them: "yo-yo, what's this sadness mate, don't be the stereotype! Suppress that shit, happy thoughts, easy as that. Look at me, I'm smiling, so you can do it too!"

Ignorance is bliss after all.

 

[DE4life]

Maybe meet someone with actual depression, then this conversation can continue. Hell, you don't even need to dig deeper than the basic wikipedia description of it to be dragged down from your high horse.

But no, actually, you better not meet with anyone suffering from it. It might be a bit awkward when you start nagging them: "yo-yo, what's this sadness mate, don't be the stereotype! Suppress that shit, happy thoughts, easy as that. Look at me, I'm smiling, so you can do it too!"

Ignorance is bliss after all.

I'm not going to talk to you about depression because it's clear you know nothing about it. You're using wikipedia as a source. The reason I'm surprised that you claim to be older is that you give off the impression of a teenager who walks around thinking he knows everything, spouting off to anybody who will listen. You exaggerate your arguments, attempt to belittle anybody who disagrees with you, fail to admit when you're wrong and construct strawmen in arguments in an attempt to strengthen your points. It's all suggestive of an early teenager, but it might just be your posting style that makes you seem younger than you are.

Either way, do some research on suicides that came completely out of the blue. Gary Speed (Welsh ex-footballer) might be a good place to start. It might broaden your horizons on this topic a little. I don't really want to speak about it with you any further, as I find what you've said pretty offensive.

 

[Jester Slave]

I'm not going to talk to you about depression because it's clear you know nothing about it. You're using wikipedia as a source. The reason I'm surprised that you claim to be older is that you give off the impression of a teenager who walks around thinking he knows everything, spouting off to anybody who will listen. You exaggerate your arguments, attempt to belittle anybody who disagrees with you, fail to admit when you're wrong and construct strawmen in arguments in an attempt to strengthen your points. It's all suggestive of an early teenager, but it might just be your posting style that makes you seem younger than you are.

Either way, do some research on suicides that came completely out of the blue. Gary Speed (Welsh ex-footballer) might be a good place to start. It might broaden your horizons on this topic a little. I don't really want to speak about it with you any further, as I find what you've said pretty offensive.

I don't use wikipedia as a resource for depression. At least don't pull bullshit stunts like twisting my word in the same post where you criticize my style of arguing.

And if you want to believe someone would not be affected by living with a depressed person, then as I said, be happy with your ignorance. No one, and I repeat, no one is capable of keeping his demons away for years from the people he/she is living with. It's not possible, stop bullshitting. The whole "point" of depression is that it gets the best of you, and you can't escape it. Whether you flip out and turn into a monster, or just feel like the biggest useless piece of shit in the universe, or get paranoid and think everyone is out to get you... the scale of impact can vary, but it HAS an impact, that's why we make a difference from basic mood swings, which every single person has, and actual depression, which is a legitimate medical term.

Yes, not every depressed people walk around pointing a gun to their head and not all of them will make you tear your hair out even after 1 week. But what the F does it matter when we are talking about intimate relationships, which can be living together as a couple, or being around the same damn folks every day for years?

Don't tire me just because you got all worked up on technicalities. Also, saying I don't know about depression won't make it true. I mean, if we want to list how many bullshit techniques we use in these arguments, it definitely deserves a mention at least.

 

[eochaid]

And if you want to believe someone would not be affected by living with a depressed person, then as I said, be happy with your ignorance. No one, and I repeat, no one is capable of keeping his demons away for years from the people he/she is living with. It's not possible, stop bullshitting.

There is. I lived half my life with a person with depression and it did not affected me more than any other illness. Depression is not like in the movies.

The whole "point" of depression is that it gets the best of you, and you can't escape it. Whether you flip out and turn into a monster, or just feel like the biggest useless piece of shit in the universe, or get paranoid and think everyone is out to get you... the scale of impact can vary, but it HAS an impact, that's why we make a difference from basic mood swings, which every single person has, and actual depression, which is a legitimate medical term.

No, you cannot escape, but it has its highs and lows, so poeple with depression can still be happy, since there are ways to control it, except for the most several cases. There was also recently known that depression can be made by the own body, so a person with this kind of illness can know where the next attack will come and how to reduce its impact.

Yes, not every depressed people walk around pointing a gun to their head and not all of them will make you tear your hair out even after 1 week. But what the F does it matter when we are talking about intimate relationships, which can be living together as a couple, or being around the same damn folks every day for years?

Nothing, since there are degrees. Depression is not about killing yourself, that is the worst and the fewer part. Most of the depressive people simply cannot face the everyday life, and that's when they're on the high depressive days.

 

[Jester Slave]

There is. I lived half my life with a person with depression and it did not affected me more than any other illness. Depression is not like in the movies.

Any other illness is a wide range from flu to cancer. But I suppose the treatment that person got has more or less worked then. It requires some serious "aaaaallll right, you know he's/she's sick, don't let it be personal" mindset even as an adult to be able to cope with it.

And it can be like in the movies. I've been in to... what's it called... closed wards? Not sure what's the English term, but I was there as a visitor and HOLY FUCKING SHIT. It's not even the batshit crazy ones. I mean, yeah, they can be scary, but when you walk into a room, and there are like 3 or 4 normal looking people. But as soon as you look into their eyes, and I swear I'm not even dramatizing it, you just see. It's all there. Those people are almost literally starving for happiness. They smile, they can even laugh but it's all empty as your belly in the mornings. Just a bunch of zombies stuffed into living flesh.

So yeah, it can be movie-like, but in reality, most of the time it's boring. But as I said, it's bound to affect you. Just look over to your neighbours goofing around. That's cool. I wanna do that too. "not now - later - im tired" Bam, 12 years later you are arguing with some random middle-aged toreador about In fucking Flames online. Maaaaaaaaaaaaaan, I'm gonna get depressed

No, you cannot escape, but it has its highs and lows, so poeple with depression can still be happy

Generally happy, yes. But it's even harder for famous people, like Jesper. He's not a Hollywood star, but he went from "that blonde dude who likes guitars and stuff" to the founding member of a commercially successful band. No one cared when they were recording LS, Subt. or TJR. They were in their little hermit, a nice, cozy warm place. It's possible he hadn't even suffered from depression back then. But throw anyone into the spotlight, and you will see that it's not just him, who grew bigger, but his shadow as well. He's quite lucky if alcohol was the only thing he reached out to in his desperation, even though we all know it killed many musicians too.

We can still only theorize what went down during the years, but I think the picture is much clearer now, especially if you try to interpret some of the interviews from Anders (like the one I quoted from) and Jesper's rampage on social media, which we can say from hindsight, was basically a meltdown.

Nothing, since there are degrees. Depression is not about killing yourself, that is the worst and the fewer part. Most of the depressive people simply cannot face the everyday life, and that's when they're on the high depressive days.

Just today I had this conversation. Yes, killing themselves off is not that common compared to the "please, notice/help me" attempts while taking some pills or cutting themselves a bit.

 

[eochaid]

Any other illness is a wide range from flu to cancer. But I suppose the treatment that person got has more or less worked then. It requires some serious "aaaaallll right, you know he's/she's sick, don't let it be personal" mindset even as an adult to be able to cope with it.

You're wrong. First, all treatment works for non-desperate cases. Second, depresive people don't go bothering the others. They tend to close themselves (at least, the ones I've known). So, it's not something that you have to cope with. It's something that you see how it's affecting the other (the one with the illness) and all that you can do is to support him/her. But it has no real effect into you as a person neither in your life, unless he/she is a severe case.

And it can be like in the movies. I've been in to... what's it called... closed wards? Not sure what's the English term, but I was there as a visitor and HOLY FUCKING SHIT. It's not even the batshit crazy ones. I mean, yeah, they can be scary, but when you walk into a room, and there are like 3 or 4 normal looking people. But as soon as you look into their eyes, and I swear I'm not even dramatizing it, you just see. It's all there. Those people are almost literally starving for happiness. They smile, they can even laugh but it's all empty as your belly in the mornings. Just a bunch of zombies stuffed into living flesh.

You're taking the extremes and making it the rule.

So yeah, it can be movie-like, but in reality, most of the time it's boring. But as I said, it's bound to affect you. Just look over to your neighbours goofing around. That's cool. I wanna do that too. "not now - later - im tired" Bam, 12 years later you are arguing with some random middle-aged toreador about In fucking Flames online. Maaaaaaaaaaaaaan, I'm gonna get depressed

No, the most of the time it's fucking normal. And please, don't call me toreador.

Generally happy, yes. But it's even harder for famous people, like Jesper. He's not a Hollywood star, but he went from "that blonde dude who likes guitars and stuff" to the founding member of a commercially successful band. No one cared when they were recording LS, Subt. or TJR. They were in their little hermit, a nice, cozy warm place. It's possible he hadn't even suffered from depression back then. But throw anyone into the spotlight, and you will see that it's not just him, who grew bigger, but his shadow as well. He's quite lucky if alcohol was the only thing he reached out to in his desperation, even though we all know it killed many musicians too.

This is why people cant get you seriously. Again making assumptions and conclusions. What can you know about that time? Nothing! Just as the rest of us. What can you know about Jesper? Nothing! You don't even know his grade of depression.

We can still only theorize what went down during the years, but I think the picture is much clearer now, especially if you try to interpret some of the interviews from Anders (like the one I quoted from) and Jesper's rampage on social media, which we can say from hindsight, was basically a meltdown.

You just use your own asumptions that lead to the conclusions that you want. That Anders is a cool guy and Jesper is the devil with a depresion.

Just today I had this conversation. Yes, killing themselves off is not that common compared to the "please, notice/help me" attempts while taking some pills or cutting themselves a bit.

No. No and No. Depressive people doesn't think about the others while they're high on the depression, it's all about themselves. And the most of them will never think about suicide. You went to an institution or a hospital, saw some desperate cases and thought that you knew everything about depression. You just saw some medicated depressive long-term patients. That is not the rule. That is the extreme.