contraversial musical opinions

[thisisaformicatable]

Quality: Degree or grade of excellence

Who determines that quality but the fans themselves? You or me? no.. were not fans... we only give a biased opinion of such quality & of course would give a opinion of bad quality... if it's bad quality then the fans won't buy it... do some people buy it? yes... of course they do... I didn't say zero sales... just lower sales after it's debut... difficult concept to grasp? ... For example... I haven't bought a Metallica album since their Black album... why? because I considered Black to be a bad quality album and any things I heard from albums after that one were bad to me also... I'm a fan and that is my opinion on their quality... Does everyone think like i do? of course not... because it's a opinion and everyone has one... accept it... we all have opinions & that is all it is about this topic... opinion...

Necuratul covered this well enough. I'll add that someone who is a fan of a band is biased as much, if not more than someone who is indifferent to them when it comes to determining quality. A good, knowledgeable critic shouldn't have a problem recognizing quality (high or low) in an album. A good, knowledgeable critic should put aside their personal bias and analyze the work on as an objective a basis as possible. Quality isn't determined democratically as you insinuate, popularity is.

Btw I don't see the link to that previous thread... you told me to put up or shut up about that particular thing... I don't remember the thread so you'll have to post the link to it... if you can't then I would have to say to you to put up or shut up... I'm offering to go through the thread for you since u are too lazy or are you afraid I will find that line and I am right...

This is so idiotic it's almost insulting. YOU assert something. YOU prove it. That's how it works among civilized people.

 

[Alongside Death]

I love those long debates between Dodens and UM.

 

[Hell Awaits Us All]

no amount of popularity or marketing will make a bad album sell

man, you have to be one of the most stupid fucking people I have ever met

(like TIACN would say), there aren't any words in the entire english language that can do justice to how ignorant and idiotic the above statement is.

look at these "artists"

- nelly
- 50 cent
- nickelback
- metallica's "st anger"
- britney spears
- n'sync

all of the above sold massive amounts of copies despite containing absolutely no redeemable qualities whatsoever

you have no argument, stop talking.

 

[DakkonBlackBlade]

Hmmm...

Cannibal Corpse is by far one of the worst Death Metal Bands I've ever heard.

The only true Black Metal bands are Burzum, Immortal, Darkthrone, and Dark Funeral.

Heartwork DID suck.

At The Gates Destroys In Flames in every possible way.

Slaughter Of The Soul was one of the best albums ever.

Rhapsody has to be one of the gayest bands I've ever heard besides Manowar.

Swallow The Suns Cover of Candlemass' Solitude was better then the original

 

[Unfaithfully Metalhead]

The assertion that only people that like the music can judge the quality of the music is absurd.

They are the ultimate consumer so yes they can judge the product they are going to buy if not then why do we bother to buy other things we like in life such as a car, clothes,and other consumer products if in your assertion the average buyer is too stupid to make a judgement on quality of said product including music?

Everybody listens to the same piece of music. Everybody approaches it from a different angle, but no opinion is any more or less valid at the core. What raises one's opinion's value is the knowledge and understanding attached to it. One who is able to critically analyze a work for what it is objectively has a more worthwhile opinion than the average teeny bopper. What raises the value of one's opinion on a specific type of music is not whether or not they like it, but whether or not they know and understand it. There are objective measures of quality, but they're obviously subject to opinion. You can judge how effective the artist is in communicating a message, the production, the instrumentation, the vocals, the dynamics, the songwriting, etc., but everyone will view these objective measures subjectively. Being that there are objective measures regarding quality, the more 'qualified' one is, the more relevant and valuable their assessment of a work is. The average music listener does not have a very worthwhile opinion as far as judging the quality of a work is concerned.

Anyone with average and mature intelligence without being a music critic as a living or a music nut as yourself can make a intelligent and informed opinion about a album's quality. They do not need to know the inner workings of instruments and manufacturing of music to make a informed judgement about the quality of the music. Much like a jury with average intelligence can assert the guilt or innocence of a person on trial & not have to be a expert in every aspect that is brought out in a trial such as ballistics,fingerprints etc.

Accordingly, being that the bulk of record sales come from the average music listener, using record sales as a means of determining the quality of an album is fruitless at best.

and why not? they are the ultimate consumer in the end. Not you or me. Do you have to be a mechanic to buy a good quality car or could you make the decision on your own as to it's quality? Yes you see the commercial of a car which tells it is good quality but you have to go see the car, drive it, inspect it etc... No amount of marketing/promotion will do that for you. It merely makes you aware of the product and where to get it plus some vague information on it in 30 seconds but you have to make the ultimate judgement to part your money and give it to them. Of course a album can be bad quality to you or me but not to them. Quality ultimately is up to the ultimate consumer since it is their money. They judge the grade of excellence (quality) because it is they who are buying it. If they judge it to not be good they will not buy it no matter what sort of money the label throws at us to convince otherwise.

Thus, there is no effective, causationally linked correlation between record sales and quality. Judging the musical quality of a given work should be reserved for the informed and the knowledgeable.

Let me guess... informed and knowledgeable such as yourself? lol So that a average uninformed and unknowledgeable fan should only base the quality of a album not on their own opinion but from a person such as yourself? lol sorry i can make my own judgement on the quality of a album... no one can do that for me... I've heard so many people such as yourself who are "informed" and "knowledgeable" say that Mayhem's DMDS (for example) is of such "high quality" & I can proudly say that album was of bad quality imo & I'm informed and knowledgeable enough in the aspects you named before (songwriting, instrumentation etc.) to say that. But that is just my opinion. You have your own and most likely you think it's high quality. So whatever you say about the mainstream can be applied to the underground extreme scene. Have you ever read a movie critic or music critic's article on a movie or album and you went to go see the movie or listen to a album and made the opposite view as to that movie/album's quality? . Now what makes your opinion on the quality any more so qualified then the professional music/movie critic?. You both are "informed" and "knowledgeable". You both have different views because it is a matter of one's own opinion regardless of knowledge of trivial things like instrumentation, songwriting, message etc.

Mainstream music created for mainstream audiences is of inherently lower quality because it explicitly panders to the lowest common denominator listeners, those least knowledgeable and least informed.

So that a band let's say Pink Floyd which technically is a mainstream band in it's heyday is low quality in your book just because your no fan of the mainstream and consider most if not all of it lower quality. But since PF has stood the test of time and millions upon millions.. hell maybe billions by now buy their albums years after their breakup then that wouldn't constitute good quality? Since afterall if it was bad quality their music wouldn't last this long for them?...

THEY may think that the new Backstreet Boys album is high quality, but analyzed as objectively as possible, it will inevitably be deemed shallow and vapid.

Only the test of time can ultimately judge the quality of a album. One like PF that lasts this long & keeps selling can be judged to be of such high quality while one like Backstreet Boys as evidenced by history and time hasn't so could be judged intelligently by the average listener now that it's of low quality.

 

[Hell Awaits Us All]

so how about that 50 cent? he went platinum

I guess that means the state of popular hip hop is wonderful right now?

fucking moron

 

[Unfaithfully Metalhead]

man, you have to be one of the most stupid fucking people I have ever met

(like TIACN would say), there aren't any words in the entire english language that can do justice to how ignorant and idiotic the above statement is.

look at these "artists"

- nelly
- 50 cent
- nickelback
- metallica's "st anger"
- britney spears
- n'sync

all of the above sold massive amounts of copies despite containing absolutely no redeemable qualities whatsoever

you have no argument, stop talking.

go fuck yourself.. no one asked you to enter this convo between me and Doden/formaticable... you don't like my opinion then ignore it... like my previous post to Doden said at the end... only the test of time will judge what albums are good quality or not... and last for years... all of Satch's albums sell good but alot of them suck and are of bad quality... so all this talk about quality & sales can be applied to anything in music... mainstream or not...

 

[Unfaithfully Metalhead]

The only true Black Metal bands are Burzum, Immortal, Darkthrone, and Dark Funeral.

Those are the only bands you like in BM? ... just curious...

 

[DakkonBlackBlade]

Well I enjoy Nokturnal Mortum, Anaal Nathrahk. But I consider those four the best BM bands.

 

[Unfaithfully Metalhead]

ahh ok... Dark Funeral usually doesn't get put so high on lists... but I like them as well.. their last album especially...

 

[DakkonBlackBlade]

Same. I also dont know why people like In Flames so much...they are superbly boring.

 

[Hell Awaits Us All]

go fuck yourself.. no one asked you to enter this convo between me and Doden/formaticable... you don't like my opinion then ignore it... like my previous post to Doden said at the end... only the test of time will judge what albums are good quality or not... and last for years... all of Satch's albums sell good but alot of them suck and are of bad quality... so all this talk about quality & sales can be applied to anything in music... mainstream or not...

your argument is so pathetically inconsistent, I have no idea where even to begin

now sales don't matter in the current time period as it relates to music quality, but test of time will judge what albums are good quality?

test of time has judged king crimson's albums to be some of the absolute best in prog rock history, yet their record sales are negligible compared to a band like pink floyd or even yes

so which is it? test of time or CD sales? or are you going to come up with another ridiculous entirely incomprehensible line of reasoning next?

 

[Unfaithfully Metalhead]

I think King Crimson sold pretty good back in the day... not millions but respectable and still do...

 

[Unfaithfully Metalhead]

Same. I also dont know why people like In Flames so much...they are superbly boring.

I never got into In Flames neither... but to each his/her own...

 

[Thoth-Amon]

Hmmm...

Cannibal Corpse is by far one of the worst Death Metal Bands I've ever heard.

The only true Black Metal bands are Burzum, Immortal, Darkthrone, and Dark Funeral.

1. No.
2. .... no.

 

[Vossyrus]

As far as the music quality issue goes:

I still don't think number of sales equals quality. There are many underground or lesser known bands making quality material but will never get the recognition they deserve, except for in 'cult' followings and probably won't end up selling much. Music with a higher mainstream appeal will always sell the more records regarless of the quality because there is a larger audience potential awaiting. And with many bands I often find the band's breakthrough/peak album is usually topped in sales by the next album due to popularity growth and reputation whether or not it exceeds it.

 

[thisisaformicatable]

They are the ultimate consumer so yes they can judge the product they are going to buy if not then why do we bother to buy other things we like in life such as a car, clothes,and other consumer products if in your assertion the average buyer is too stupid to make a judgement on quality of said product including music?

Again this entire disagreement is due to a different understanding of the concept of "quality." To you, quality is how much a given consumer enjoys a product. To others such as myself, and I would assume to some extent those that are calling you out on your moronic behaviour, quality is relatively objective measure of the worthiness of a piece of art. What you are saying (or at least were saying before you started with the "test of time" stuff) isn't that record sales are directly associated with artistic quality, but that record sales are directly associated with customer satisfaction. Doesn't that sound more sensible? You wouldn't even need to bother with a sad string of impotent analogies if you thought about this.

 

[Unfaithfully Metalhead]

Again this entire disagreement is due to a different understanding of the concept of "quality." To you, quality is how much a given consumer enjoys a product. To others such as myself, and I would assume to some extent those that are calling you out on your moronic behaviour, quality is relatively objective measure of the worthiness of a piece of art. What you are saying (or at least were saying before you started with the "test of time" stuff) isn't that record sales are directly associated with artistic quality, but that record sales are directly associated with customer satisfaction. Doesn't that sound more sensible? You wouldn't even need to bother with a sad string of impotent analogies if you thought about this.

Moronic behavior? You better rethink that.. I been nothing but trying to be civil throughout this whole issue till 1 or 2 people (including yourself) had to stoop to lows of name calling, attacks etc. because you do not agree with my opinions... So if I reacted to that and stooped to your moronic behavior then you'll have to forgive me (though I'm not really asking for forgiveness because I did nothing wrong but state my opinon on a topic)... provocation does that... but anyways I prefer my "test of time" opinion as to the quality of a album regardless of sales, music critics, average listeners etc. That's why albums like London Calling, Transylvanian Hunger, Darkside of the Moon, In the Nightside Eclipse, Sgt. Peppers Lonely Hearts band etc. to give albums from different era's are still respected and still sell more or less all these years after they debuted & their so called fads faded away years ago... this topic is old so let it die already... I see that people can't talk to each other without the name calling/attacks coming out eventually without provocation other then difference in opinion.. my mistake for thinking people can be mature..

 

[thisisaformicatable]

[Off-topic bickering]

Moronic behavior? You better rethink that.. I been nothing but trying to be civil throughout this whole issue till 1 or 2 people (including yourself) had to stoop to lows of name calling, attacks etc. because you do not agree with my opinions... So if I reacted to that and stooped to your moronic behavior then you'll have to forgive me (though I'm not really asking for forgiveness because I did nothing wrong but state my opinon on a topic)... provocation does that...

Just for fun let us review the topic. First name calling/"attacks" I could find were:

let me put it in simple terms since you still have a hard on for me from the past...

I have a hard on for you, yes, very civil.

Then Mr. Know it all and I'm always right because im think im a psuedo intellectual...

Kind of sounds like name calling to me...

But I digress, this isn't the sort of behaviour I was referring to. I had a few things in mind:

1) Claiming a lack of "quality" in music caused a decline in record industry sales in the 1990s, while providing *no* evidence that there even *was* a significant decline. I show you RIAA year ends that don't show this decline and you essentially ignore them.

2) Asserting that I have made a statement in the past while providing no evidence. Then you call *me* lazy for not finding the evidence for you.

3) Acting defensive, asking for the discussion to end almost every time you post, calling out others for not carrying on a "mature" debate while slinging just as much shit as anyone else involved, using your age as an argument, etc.


[/Off-topic bickering]

but anyways I prefer my "test of time" opinion as to the quality of a album regardless of sales, music critics, average listeners etc. That's why albums like London Calling, Transylvanian Hunger, Darkside of the Moon, In the Nightside Eclipse, Sgt. Peppers Lonely Hearts band etc. to give albums from different era's are still respected and still sell more or less all these years after they debuted & their so called fads faded away years ago...

So are you abandoning your previous positions now? This argument might give you a better chance at hitting on high quality albums, but the fundamental flaw to your argument remains: the only thing that solid record sales over time indicates is that the album has been popular over that time period. While you may equate popularity with quality, I hope you can understand why others don't. It has, I think, been sufficiently explained to you here.

this topic is old so let it die already... I see that people can't talk to each other without the name calling/attacks coming out eventually without provocation other then difference in opinion.. my mistake for thinking people can be mature..

 

[DakkonBlackBlade]

1. No.
2. .... no.

Do tell what you think the best black metal artists are.

And cannibal corpse is annoying stupid music. =/ Horrible lyrics.