contraversial musical opinions

Just for fun let us review the topic. First name calling/"attacks" I could find were: I have a hard on for you, yes, very civil. :lol:
yup I call that civil because it's true. Like I said since we last debated on that old thread in which you said you were ignore my posts from now on and you didn't this time. I think me saying that line was justified. But I'll get to that in a minute.

[Kind of sounds like name calling to me...
take it as you want... but I'm just describing what you are... I wouldn't say I called you a A hole or anything.. or do you take it as that? ... Was it a insult to you or a accurate description of you..

But I digress, this isn't the sort of behaviour I was referring to. I had a few things in mind:

[1) Claiming a lack of "quality" in music caused a decline in record industry sales in the 1990s, while providing *no* evidence that there even *was* a significant decline. I show you RIAA year ends that don't show this decline and you essentially ignore them.
Like I said I didn't remember what year(s) the article referred to since I read it like 10 years ago. Can you remember a article word for word that you read that long ago?.

[2) Asserting that I have made a statement in the past while providing no evidence. Then you call *me* lazy for not finding the evidence for you.
Again, yes you did make the statement. And I told you that I do not remember the thread name, so I had asked you to post the link to the thread because most likely you remember the thread name. I even offered to go through pages and pages in the thread to show you the line. But I just needed the link to the thread because i didn't remember the name. Understand now?

[3) Acting defensive, asking for the discussion to end almost every time you post, calling out others for not carrying on a "mature" debate while slinging just as much shit as anyone else involved, using your age as an argument, etc.
Everytime I posted? nope. Just when the thread is running pages of redundant posts from all involved in that particular topic. We all kept repeating ourselves to each other so what was the point of continuing?. We weren't going to change each other's minds. I slung shit back when it was slung at me first. That is how I am.I try not to sling anything first.But it does happen when I lose my cool. My age as a argument. Yup. One's experience to see certain things first hand & not just read about them is a good argument. For example can you argue about the happenings of Woodstock better then a Hippie or someone in the business side of things at the Festival who was there? (not me just a hypothetical). Because you read about it or consider yourself knowledgeable. Can I argue about your own experiences when I haven't experienced such things myself but I read about such experiences?. That was my argument for the age thing. And perhaps in 10 or 20 years some kid will argue with you about the era you grew up in. Maybe perhaps then you will consider age a factor in such things.


[/Off-topic bickering]


[So are you abandoning your previous positions now? This argument might give you a better chance at hitting on high quality albums, but the fundamental flaw to your argument remains: the only thing that solid record sales over time indicates is that the album has been popular over that time period. While you may equate popularity with quality, I hope you can understand why others don't. It has, I think, been sufficiently explained to you here.

I rethought it and to me time and albums that sell year after year (and doesn't have to be phenomenonal numbers since it's reasonable to say they won't sell 1 million a year but have respectable numbers)to me is a good indication of quality long after the fad faded away. A popular album like Britney Spears debut that both you and me as well as others can accurately describe as bad quality will not last the test of time. It will fade away to obscurity. But a album like Pink Floyd's Darkside of the Moon (among other albums from other bands/artists) that has been selling day in and day out since around 1973 can be construed as a good quality album that has lasted the test of time even if you are not a fan of that band or their music.It is more then just popularity with albums like that (PF's and others). You can say that the average music buyer subconciously can tell a good quality album like PF's DSOTM over Britney's debut. But anyways I never said I didn't understand your reasoning and opinions. I respect anyone's opinions. I just don't agree with it and that is all I am trying to get you to understand.To respect mine even if you think or know im totally wrong because I am entitled to my own opinion.

And like I said this topic has been beaten to a pulp with both sides just repeating themselves and that is why I had said just to let it go & let others post other controversial music topics. Simple as that. Nothing more or less.
 
I think their lyrics are funny. that being said, I don't consider CC to be in my top death metal band list.
I like them with Chris Barnes better, old school Cannibal Corpse is in my top bands, the newer one with Corpsegrinder is good, and those fast technical riffs with George growling fast incude headbanging, but the new CC isn't quite where Deicide and Morbid Angel are, back below it.
 
Some of these arent that contraversial but oh well:

1. I dont care for Celtic Frost - Into the Pandemonium.

2. Monotheist by Celtic Frost was overhyped.

3. Most Melodic/Gothenburg "death metal" bands do not count as death metal really.

4. The Possessed were pretty fucking tacky. Yes, I know they gave it the title "death metal".

5. Slayer's Divine Intervention was their last good release.

6. Morbid Angel's Blessed Are The Sick pales in comparison to Altars of Madness.

7. Decapitated took a lot from Vader but they do it better.

8. Some punk and hardcore are great. I'm not talking about the recent trend of Gothenburg-emo-whatever-metalcore bands.

9. The 3 of the 4 major thrash bands (Metallica, Megadeth, and Anthrax) weren't even that good. Metallica were decent at best.

10. Pantera's Cowboys from Hell is terribly overrated. Reinventing The Stell is their best work.

11. Later Death is really overrated. They were at their prime around Leprosy and Spiritual Healing.

12. Kreator's Extreme Aggression is overrated. Pleasure to Kill is far better.

13. Malevolent Creation's Stillborn could of been a classic if they did not have all those problems.
 
yup I call that civil because it's true.
In that case, when I called your behaviour moronic I was being civil because it's true. Fair? :lol: And you have the gall to call out others for not being "mature." :lol:

Like I said I didn't remember what year(s) the article referred to since I read it like 10 years ago. Can you remember a article word for word that you read that long ago?.
No, which means I wouldn't base my arguments on it. You made an assertion, you provided no evidence for it. Spare me the excuses.

Again, yes you did make the statement. And I told you that I do not remember the thread name, so I had asked you to post the link to the thread because most likely you remember the thread name. I even offered to go through pages and pages in the thread to show you the line. But I just needed the link to the thread because i didn't remember the name. Understand now?
You asserted that I said something and provided no evidence to back it up. I understand perfectly. Spare me the excuses.

Everytime I posted? nope.
:rolleyes:
...almost every time you post...

Just when the thread is running pages of redundant posts from all involved in that particular topic. We all kept repeating ourselves to each other so what was the point of continuing?. We weren't going to change each other's minds.
Here's why: you aren't changing my mind because you don't supply evidence. I don't change your mind because you ignore evidence that goes against your beliefs.

I slung shit back when it was slung at me first. That is how I am.I try not to sling anything first.But it does happen when I lose my cool.
Prove it. Actually, don't bother, I don't really care and I doubt you could. :lol:

My age as a argument. Yup. One's experience to see certain things first hand & not just read about them is a good argument. For example...(retarded analogy removed for brevity)
No it isn't. You are insinuating a significant decline in record industry sales based on an article you read a decade ago and don't remember and your personal experience. This isn't evidence. I'm sure it seems like a strong argument to you but to others you might as well be making it all up.

I rethought it and to me time and albums that sell year after year (and doesn't have to be phenomenonal numbers since it's reasonable to say they won't sell 1 million a year but have respectable numbers)to me is a good indication of quality long after the fad faded away. A popular album like Britney Spears debut that both you and me as well as others can accurately describe as bad quality will not last the test of time. It will fade away to obscurity. But a album like Pink Floyd's Darkside of the Moon (among other albums from other bands/artists) that has been selling day in and day out since around 1973 can be construed as a good quality album that has lasted the test of time even if you are not a fan of that band or their music.It is more then just popularity with albums like that (PF's and others). You can say that the average music buyer subconciously can tell a good quality album like PF's DSOTM over Britney's debut.
So what's your formula? How many album sales per year, how long must this be maintained? Let's do some math.

According to Wikipedia:

Dark Side Of The Moon, released 1973 has sold an estimated 40 million copies.
...Baby One More Time, released 1999 has sold an estimated 20 million copies.
Thriller, released 1982 has sold an estimated 100 million copies.

Dark Side Of The Moon and ...Baby One More Time came out in the first quarter of their respective release years, while Thriller came out in December so we'll call it a 1993 release. We'll count up to 2006.

Dark Side Of The Moon:
40 million / 34 years = ~1.176 million/year

...Baby One More Time
20 million / 7 years = ~2.857 million/year

Thriller
100 million / 24 years = ~4.167 million/year

Now, clearly Thriller is the highest quality album of all time (in fact it's four times as good as Dark Side Of The Moon ;)), but if the average music listener "...subconciously(sic) can tell a good quality album", then why do they prefer Britney Spears over Pink Floyd during recent years? Is the quality of the album changing, or perhaps just the popularity? How do you differentiate between popularity and quality through album sales?

But anyways I never said I didn't understand your reasoning and opinions. I respect anyone's opinions. I just don't agree with it and that is all I am trying to get you to understand.To respect mine even if you think or know im totally wrong because I am entitled to my own opinion.

And like I said this topic has been beaten to a pulp with both sides just repeating themselves and that is why I had said just to let it go & let others post other controversial music topics. Simple as that. Nothing more or less.
This discussion isn't for your sole benefit, others have things they want to explain, opinions they want to share and positions they want to understand. Don't expect everyone to drop everything and stop when you want, and stop asking us to, it's getting old. If you want to leave, go ahead.
 
Some of these arent that contraversial but oh well:

1. I dont care for Celtic Frost - Into the Pandemonium.

2. Monotheist by Celtic Frost was overhyped.

3. Most Melodic/Gothenburg "death metal" bands do not count as death metal really.

4. The Possessed were pretty fucking tacky. Yes, I know they gave it the title "death metal".

5. Slayer's Divine Intervention was their last good release.

6. Morbid Angel's Blessed Are The Sick pales in comparison to Altars of Madness.

7. Decapitated took a lot from Vader but they do it better.

8. Some punk and hardcore are great. I'm not talking about the recent trend of Gothenburg-emo-whatever-metalcore bands.

9. The 3 of the 4 major thrash bands (Metallica, Megadeth, and Anthrax) weren't even that good. Metallica were decent at best.

10. Pantera's Cowboys from Hell is terribly overrated. Reinventing The Stell is their best work.

11. Later Death is really overrated. They were at their prime around Leprosy and Spiritual Healing.

12. Kreator's Extreme Aggression is overrated. Pleasure to Kill is far better.

13. Malevolent Creation's Stillborn could of been a classic if they did not have all those problems.

I agree with most of what you said.
 
In that case, when I called your behaviour moronic I was being civil because it's true. Fair? :lol: And you have the gall to call out others for not being "mature." :lol:
Then were both morons for behaving like one.. fair enough?


No, which means I wouldn't base my arguments on it. You made an assertion, you provided no evidence for it. Spare me the excuses.

If you think I can provide a 10 year old article of which i don't remember what newspaper it was in and I don't even remember the title of the article your sadly mistaken. If you can provide a article from 10 years ago you vaguely remember then your superhuman.


You asserted that I said something and provided no evidence to back it up. I understand perfectly. Spare me the excuses.
I can't provide it because I do not remember the title of the thread :lol: is that so difficult to comprehend.If I could remember the thread I would proudly display it for you. Do you remember the title of the thread? Was like two months ago. If so let me know and I'll search for it myself.


When I mean everytime i posted i mean individual posts within a thread. Not a thread itself. Yes if after like 20 posts in a thread I say let's just drop it because it's stupid then yes i said it around the 20th post for example(don't quote me as saying at the actual 20th post but you get my meaning). But if you think I say let's drop it in all 20 posts in a single thread then your sadly mistaken.



Here's why: you aren't changing my mind because you don't supply evidence. I don't change your mind because you ignore evidence that goes against your beliefs.
Nope, you don't change your mind because you will only believe yourself and no one else. You always have to be right. And I don't mean with me in particular but I'm sure all your arguments with any person you've had in your life. As for changing my mind. You don't change my mind because I have my own opinion and i think mine is right.


Prove it. Actually, don't bother, I don't really care and I doubt you could.
Easy. When Hell Awaits flung shit at me. I flung it back. I never disrespected him in the first place. You were under the assumption I meant you in the first place. You did later on but that wasn't when I first lost my cool.


No it isn't. You are insinuating a significant decline in record industry sales based on an article you read a decade ago and don't remember and your personal experience. This isn't evidence. I'm sure it seems like a strong argument to you but to others you might as well be making it all up.
Well then if experience counts for nothing then I guess you know better about Woodstock (for example) then a hippie who was there. <shrugs>


So what's your formula? How many album sales per year, how long must this be maintained? Let's do some math.

According to Wikipedia:

Dark Side Of The Moon, released 1973 has sold an estimated 40 million copies.
...Baby One More Time, released 1999 has sold an estimated 20 million copies.
Thriller, released 1982 has sold an estimated 100 million copies.

Dark Side Of The Moon and ...Baby One More Time came out in the first quarter of their respective release years, while Thriller came out in December so we'll call it a 1993 release. We'll count up to 2006.

Dark Side Of The Moon:
40 million / 34 years = ~1.176 million/year

...Baby One More Time
20 million / 7 years = ~2.857 million/year

Thriller
100 million / 24 years = ~4.167 million/year

Now, clearly Thriller is the highest quality album of all time (in fact it's four times as good as Dark Side Of The Moon ;)), but if the average music listener "...subconciously(sic) can tell a good quality album", then why do they prefer Britney Spears over Pink Floyd during recent years? Is the quality of the album changing, or perhaps just the popularity? How do you differentiate between popularity and quality through album sales?

I don't recall myself saying "highest quality" in my "time" opinion. I merely said longetivity indicates good quality for it to last that long. Even if Britney sold more in less time then PF in the same time period when their album came out in the long run her albums will fade away and not have a lasting appeal as Thriller or DSOTM due to bad quality. Hers is temporary appeal and not lasting appeal. Her fans outgrow her stuff, Floyd fans don't because of the good quality of their albums.


This discussion isn't for your sole benefit, others have things they want to explain, opinions they want to share and positions they want to understand. Don't expect everyone to drop everything and stop when you want, and stop asking us to, it's getting old. If you want to leave, go ahead.
Other then you, me and Doden (and to a certain extent Hell Awaits) no one else is really interested in our quarrel. Most skim it for the amusement of it but do not participate because by now they think it's too long & too stupid. Don't flatter yourself. Not everyone cares what you have to say all the time. And yes this convo is getting old, long & stupid. If your life centers around arguing with me for pages & pages then that is sad & you lack something in your life. Because your points on this topic could be said in one or two posts & not pages (we both repeated ourselves over & over so again whats the point?). Your life centers around me & my thoughts, I guess I should be flattered but kind of find it disturbing. But whatever. :zombie:
 
ok, i have some contraversial points, for example:

1&#186;) without Ozzy, Black Sabbath worked much better
2&#186;) Sarc&#243;fago is the 1st Black Metal band
3&#186;) Cannibal Corpse with Chris Barnes >>>>> without him
4&#186;) Venom, Mot&#246;rhead and Cradle of Filth don't have a perfect label
5&#186;) Modern prog rock (Porcupine Tree, Riverside) > old prog rock (Uriah Heep, Pink Floyd)
 
The only decent thrash "comeback" album was Monotheist, and it was excellent. The rest were either retro cash-ins or trend-jumping crap.

Then were both morons for behaving like one.. fair enough?
I'll agree with half of that statement. ;)

If you think I can provide a 10 year old article of which i don't remember what newspaper it was in and I don't even remember the title of the article your sadly mistaken. If you can provide a article from 10 years ago you vaguely remember then your superhuman.
Don't make claims without evidence to back them up. If you do, expect to get called on it.

I can't provide it because I do not remember the title of the thread :lol: is that so difficult to comprehend.If I could remember the thread I would proudly display it for you. Do you remember the title of the thread? Was like two months ago. If so let me know and I'll search for it myself.
Don't make claims without evidence to back them up. If you do, expect to get called on it.

When I mean everytime i posted i mean individual posts within a thread. Not a thread itself. Yes if after like 20 posts in a thread I say let's just drop it because it's stupid then yes i said it around the 20th post for example(don't quote me as saying at the actual 20th post but you get my meaning). But if you think I say let's drop it in all 20 posts in a single thread then your sadly mistaken.
I never said that I thought you did. I said almost. That's all.

Nope, you don't change your mind because you will only believe yourself and no one else. You always have to be right. And I don't mean with me in particular but I'm sure all your arguments with any person you've had in your life. As for changing my mind. You don't change my mind because I have my own opinion and i think mine is right.
You present no evidence. Why do you expect me to take your word for things? I go through the trouble of posting links, numbers, etc., that clearly contradict what you are saying - you hardly address them.

Easy. When Hell Awaits flung shit at me. I flung it back. I never disrespected him in the first place. You were under the assumption I meant you in the first place. You did later on but that wasn't when I first lost my cool.
OK, fair in that case, I guess. Why you even bring up this childish "he started it" bullshit is beyond me.

Well then if experience counts for nothing then I guess you know better about Woodstock (for example) then a hippie who was there. <shrugs>
If I did extensive studies, viewed video footage, interviewed a large number of attendees, etc. then the *evidence* would trump a single person's testimony, yes. Should I trust your memory over facts from reliable sources?

I don't recall myself saying "highest quality" in my "time" opinion. I merely said longetivity indicates good quality for it to last that long. Even if Britney sold more in less time then PF in the same time period when their album came out in the long run her albums will fade away and not have a lasting appeal as Thriller or DSOTM due to bad quality. Hers is temporary appeal and not lasting appeal. Her fans outgrow her stuff, Floyd fans don't because of the good quality of their albums.
How do you know she won't have lasting appeal or longevity? Her music has stood the test of time thus far, hasn't it? How long do you have to wait until you know an album is high quality? By your logic in 1975 there would be no way to tell if Dark Side Of The Moon was a quality album or not.

Other then you, me and Doden (and to a certain extent Hell Awaits) no one else is really interested in our quarrel. Most skim it for the amusement of it but do not participate because by now they think it's too long & too stupid. Don't flatter yourself. Not everyone cares what you have to say all the time. And yes this convo is getting old, long & stupid. If your life centers around arguing with me for pages & pages then that is sad & you lack something in your life. Because your points on this topic could be said in one or two posts & not pages (we both repeated ourselves over & over so again whats the point?). Your life centers around me & my thoughts, I guess I should be flattered but kind of find it disturbing. But whatever. :zombie:
Please drop the ad hominem crap and focus on the discussion at hand. If you don't want to participate, leave. :)
 
Do tell what you think the best black metal artists are.

And cannibal corpse is annoying stupid music. =/ Horrible lyrics.

1. I never said they weren't good bands or even the best BM bands (though I would contest Immortal certainly). I only responded to the fact that you listed that they were the ONLY TRUE BM bands. Which is ludicrous. There are tons more TRUE BM that I could name.
2. CC is one of the most consistently good DM bands out there. And yeah the lyrics are shit but I don't listen to DM to be enlightened by its 'breathtaking' prose. I've got Dante for that.
 
Really...I thought grind-influenced black metal would be your cup of tea. Did you know that Napalm Death's drummer drums on Eschaton?

yeah I knew that. its just not my cup of tea, though. as far as grind-influenced black metal I am way more into Blood.
 
ok, i have some contraversial points, for example:

1º) without Ozzy, Black Sabbath worked much better
2º) Sarcófago is the 1st Black Metal band
3º) Cannibal Corpse with Chris Barnes >>>>> without him
4º) Venom, Motörhead and Cradle of Filth don't have a perfect label
5º) Modern prog rock (Porcupine Tree, Riverside) > old prog rock (Uriah Heep, Pink Floyd)

disagree on most of you points.

1) Ozzy material is better
2) I disagree - Bathory was
3) disagree again - Corpsegrinder is a better vocalist
4) not sure what you mean by that
5) I think they're equal
 
Unfaithfully Metalhead, you're associating quality with popularity. We're working with different definitions of quality, clearly, so this entire conversation is useless until you understand the quality that everyone else but you is talking about.

Quality is irrespective of mass appeal. Quality can be judged by a single person in a quiet chamber by himself with no access to the outside world. The quality of a work is within the piece of music itself, inherent in itself, and not externally. You are associating quality with a mass appeal mentality. Your definition of quality requires the preface "[to the general public]" if you mean to say that "this album is quality" because the criteria that you're using to determine this quality requires a substantial number of people and an extended period of time. Basically, until you understand that this is not the quality that everyone else is talking about, you shouldn't waste all of our time by responding further, because the arguments that you're presenting are inherently contradictory to the definition of 'quality' in this case by appealing to mass acceptance, record sales, and sale consistency through a duration of time.