Controversial opinions on metal

[Phylactery]

Hellhammer/Celtic Frost cover all the extreme metal sub genres imo and it's pretty much impossible to classify them.

 

[Internally Deformed]

Hellhammer/Celtic Frost cover all the extreme metal sub genres imo and it's pretty much impossible to classify them.

Yeah agreed. Celtic Frost is as close to grindcore as it is to black metal, which sounds retarded but is also true.

 

[MrTagoMago]

You might regret opening this can of worms, it could start a multipage debate on the matter.

Iirc I've seen interviews and magazine extracts from the early 80s that refer to Venom as a black metal band. I'm not a fan of the idea of retroactively changing the genre of a band because 10 years later the Norwegians came along (among others of course) and changed the definition of the genre. That doesn't make sense to me.

Due to this, I personally like the idea of "first wave black metal" and "second wave black metal".

I do agree there tends to be a difference between first wave black metal and second wave black metal (I don't really like second wave but I love a lot of the first wave black metal). That said with Venom they sound like a more sinister and raw NWOBHM band with Moorhead and hardcore punk influence. Mercy full fate is often referee to as black metal but I think that's to do with imagery and style because musically they aren't black metal in any way imo.

Hmm...I suppose that with albums like The Return, Bathory would have been the beginning of black metal as we know it. The reason I said Celtic Frost was due to how much they influenced bands like Darkthrone but that could be contested against.

Phylactery, I like the idea as well. Scandinavian bands really redefined the genre in the '90's compared to their '80's counterparts.

I mentioned Bathory because he released his first album before Celtic Frosts first ep and while the Bathory Debut may not be pure black metal it sounds more like the standard black metal than Celtic Frost does imo.

 

[Talos of Atmora]

I do agree there tends to be a difference between first wave black metal and second wave black metal (I don't really like second wave but I love a lot of the first wave black metal). That said with Venom they sound like a more sinister and raw NWOBHM band with Moorhead and hardcore punk influence. Mercy full fate is often referee to as black metal but I think that's to do with imagery and style because musically they aren't black metal in any way imo.



I mentioned Bathory because he released his first album before Celtic Frosts first ep and while the Bathory Debut may not be pure black metal it sounds more like the standard black metal than Celtic Frost does imo.

Yeah, I can see that.

 

[Internally Deformed]

Moorhead... Mercy full fate

You drunk?

Moorhead is an awesome band name btw.

 

[MrTagoMago]

You drunk?

Moorhead is an awesome band name btw.

I use a tablet and it's been giving me hell with its bizarre autocorrections and fucking up everything I type.

 

[MrTagoMago]

Hellhammer/Celtic Frost cover all the extreme metal sub genres imo and it's pretty much impossible to classify them.

Yeah I thought of bringing this up since I've never really known what to call Celtic frost.

 

[Phylactery]

I mentioned Bathory because he released his first album before Celtic Frosts first ep and while the Bathory Debut may not be pure black metal it sounds more like the standard black metal than Celtic Frost does imo.

This might be true, but Celtic Frost's earliest recordings were under the name Hellhammer, and they precede Bathory's earliest release. They're also much dirtier and more extreme than Celtic Frost's early work.

I think it's fair to say that Bathory's Under the Sign of the Black Mark was the biggest influence on the Norwegian scene, though.

 

[MrTagoMago]

This might be true, but Celtic Frost's earliest recordings were under the name Hellhammer, and they precede Bathory's earliest release. They're also much dirtier and more extreme than Celtic Frost's early work.

I think it's fair to say that Bathory's Under the Sign of the Black Mark was the biggest influence on the Norwegian scene, though.

I know that I was just going based on the Celtic frost name since it's been too long since I actually listened to Hellhammer. I would say that even though I love Bathory and don't care for the second wave stuff the second wave Black metal bands certainly seem to take more from Bathory.

Id say rather than one band inventing black metal it was an evolutionary process but I think Bathory in my personal opinion was the first to have what I'd call the standard black metal sound especially when he made Under the sign.

 

[HamburgerBoy]

Daily reminder that the first two Bathory albums have almost nothing in common with black metal outside of aesthetic. They're also shit.

 

[Internally Deformed]

Daily reminder that the first two Bathory albums have almost nothing in common with black metal outside of aesthetic.

Yesish.

They're also shit.

No.

 

[MrTagoMago]

Daily reminder that the first two Bathory albums have almost nothing in common with black metal outside of aesthetic. They're also shit.

I disagree on everything you just said.

 

[Internally Deformed]

So many killer riffs on the first Bathory album. It's like blackened speed metal. Also you can't tell how bad Quorthorn's vocals really are before the Viking metal era.

 

[MrTagoMago]

I'm going to get a ton of flack for this but Bathory is the best black metal band period. They are also better than any thrash band (except maybe Voivod but their best material was more prog).

 

[HamburgerBoy]

Raise the Dead is a cool song. Most of the others are bleh at best.

I'm undecided between BFD or Requiem being the best Bathory album.

 

[MrTagoMago]

So many killer riffs on the first Bathory album. It's like blackened speed metal. Also you can't tell how bad Quorthorn's vocals really are before the Viking metal era.

Hes better as a harsh vocalist than a clean one but I find something charming about how ugly he sounds on the Viking albums. His voice gives the music a certain authenticity to me.

 

[MrTagoMago]

Raise the Dead is a cool song. Most of the others are bleh at best.

I'm undecided between BFD or Requiem being the best Bathory album.

Requiem? Really?

 

[HamburgerBoy]

Yeah, it's a solid thrash album, nothing amazing but pretty decent really. Much better than all his bloated Manowar clonery.

 

[MrTagoMago]

Yeah, it's a solid thrash album, nothing amazing but pretty decent really. Much better than all his bloated Manowar clonery.

Oh ok you're another one of those who thinks Bathory sounds like Manohar for some reason.

 

[Phylactery]

"For some reason"? It's pretty fucking obvious that mid-period Bathory especially was heavily influenced by Manowar.