EchoForever
HAIL!
- Apr 7, 2016
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Controversial opinions on metal
- Thread starter The Ozzman
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CiG
Coming of Age in the Milky Way
Bathory's self titled and its similarities to Venom was just a coincidence man, he said he'd never heard of Venom at that time and I believe him...
HamburgerBoy
Active Member
- Sep 16, 2007
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Euronymous was a fuckboy too but at least he was genuinely creative and talented. It's pretty hard to find points of reference to DMDS or even Deathcrush with earlier first-wave black metal, whereas Bathory was overflowing with them.
In regards to Deathcrush, maybe Apocalyptic Raids and Bestial Devastation?
CiG
Coming of Age in the Milky Way
If two band cds come out around the sametime chances are the bands don't know who the other band is because they were already playing instruments, so yeah, make's sense.
CiG
Coming of Age in the Milky Way
1984; the year Venom had already released At War with Satan, their third offering, while Bathory was busy ripping off Venom's first two albums while pretending to have never even heard of them.
DisconnectedFromReality
Only the sound Of the cold northern breeze
Not a rip off if its an upgrade and is its own creative piece. Happens all the time in music.
Venom released Welcome to Hell in 1981 and Black Metal in 1982. That's two years before Bathory's debut album came out. Quorthon had plenty of time to hear Venom before he even began writing his own music and it seems obvious that he did if you compare the two.
Even though he insulted them in the statement posted above, he had also most likely become well-versed in the music of Slayer, Destruction, Sodom, Hellhammer and Celtic Frost by the time that he started to write more ambitious songs in the Under the Sign of the Black Mark era. He had also clearly heard Manowar by this point, since "Enter the Eternal Fire" was his first attempt at doing a song similar to the Viking stuff that he did later, but retaining the black metal vocals and production values, although he denied that he knew Manowar for a long time too.
I really like a lot of Quorthon's music, but he was definitely a dishonest person and kind of a poseur when it came to trying to portray himself as an innovator and outsider.
HamburgerBoy
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Well yeah certainly both were an influence, half of Mayhem at that point was named after Hellhammer songs. I don't really think anything from either really sounds quite like Deathcrush though. Hellhammer's riffs were on average much slower, and when not, followed fairly ordinary NWOBHM pedal-point riffing conventions. Bestial Devastation I wouldn't say was any closer than anything the other death/thrash pioneers were doing around the same time either.
Bathory on the other hand was literally just Venom, Slayer, and hardcore punk riffs with shitty production for the first two albums.
CiG
Coming of Age in the Milky Way
Not so sure I agree that Bathory's debut is an upgrade to what Venom was doing. However it becomes a rip off in my view when the person who could just instead be paying homage/being influenced explicitly denies any influence and even slags the band off.
He tried to pass off an album of obvious Venom inspiration as a completely original piece of work.
Have you HEARD At War With Satan?
DisconnectedFromReality
Only the sound Of the cold northern breeze
Cirith Ungol is also one of the main influences on Hellhammer and early Celtic Frost, which is an interesting piece of trivia worthy of being mentioned in this discussion. Unlike Quorthon, Tom G. Warrior has never tried to deny his influences and I also prefer the best Hellhammer and Celtic Frost material to anything by Bathory.
Is it even controversial to regard At War With Satan as better than Bathory's debut? You have a 20-minute track (by Venom, of all bands) that's epic as hell and has a variety of riffs that keep the listener engaged as well as several other great tracks on the latter half of the album.
CiG
Coming of Age in the Milky Way
I'd even take Possessed over Bathory.
Not with me.
TechnicalBarbarity
Poser Disposer
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