Controversial opinions on metal

[Thoth-Amon]

What good is talent if it's not enjoyable? Take Children of Bodom for example. Very talented band, indeed. Enjoyable? No. Verdict? Not a band that MY ears wish to be subjected to. And since this is a collective opinion among the groups of people represented by most on this forum, there is undoubtedly some discrepancy between CoB's talent and enjoyability.

 

[Carcassian]

I was too late for the Vihris / V5 debate to have any notion of going through the arguments again, but I would like to just touch on something that Vihris said.

I also like Sleep, Electric Wizard and Orange Goblin (particularly the latter two). I wouldn't say that they have a lack of talent (check out much of the OG drumming, for instance), but I think you mean that they don't seem to compose particularly complicated or technical music. That may be the case, but sometimes the most talented metal composer knows that the riff is fucking kind. I don't need no steenkin' polyrhythms while I'm waggling my flares about, hombre.

 

[Jreg]

What good is talent if it's not enjoyable? Take Children of Bodom for example. Very talented band, indeed. Enjoyable? No. Verdict? Not a band that MY ears wish to be subjected to. And since this is a collective opinion among the groups of people represented by most on this forum, there is undoubtedly some discrepancy between CoB's talent and enjoyability.

That's pretty much what I was getting at in my last post. IMO Any band that I enjoy possesses, by definition, some kind of talent to one degree or another. But yeah, I sort of misspoke in claiming that I don't make a distinction between the two since it doesn't necessarily work the other way around, as in the CoB example.

 

[Mort Divine]

Good to know I'm not the only that notices that this guy bags on....um...everything.

 

[zabu of nΩd]

I was too late for the Vihris / V5 debate to have any notion of going through the arguments again, but I would like to just touch on something that Vihris said.

I also like Sleep, Electric Wizard and Orange Goblin (particularly the latter two). I wouldn't say that they have a lack of talent (check out much of the OG drumming, for instance), but I think you mean that they don't seem to compose particularly complicated or technical music. That may be the case, but sometimes the most talented metal composer knows that the riff is fucking kind. I don't need no steenkin' polyrhythms while I'm waggling my flares about, hombre.

Actually, I really don't care about how complicated or technical a band is. I was commenting mainly on the songwriting ability that those guys demonstrate. They all use really generic, predictable blues-based riffs, and they don't seem to know anything more than that. They also have a lot of songs which simply aren't even catchy in the slightest. So that's what I have in mind when I say they're untalented.


edit: To use an example, compare Electric Wizard's debut album to everything they did after that. Without the massive, crunchy sound they started on Come My Fanatics, their music is completely unremarkable.

 

[Carcassian]

Ah, I see. Sorry, wasn't sure what you meant.

A little harsh on OG, perhaps (aside from the so/so Coup De Grace).

But in general: give me a generic yet engaging riff over a technical snooze-fest any day of the week.

 

[Mort Divine]

Actually, I really don't care about how complicated or technical a band is. I was commenting mainly on the songwriting ability that those guys demonstrate. They all use really generic, predictable blues-based riffs, and they don't seem to know anything more than that. They also have a lot of songs which simply aren't even catchy in the slightest. So that's what I have in mind when I say they're untalented.


edit: To use an example, compare Electric Wizard's debut album to everything they did after that. Without the massive, crunchy sound they started on Come My Fanatics, their music is completely unremarkable.

Their self-titled is completely fucking awesome. Not to the levels of Dopethrone but still it is given way too much hate. Their songwriting is great to be honest, originality doesn't make a band good tbqh.

 

[zabu of nΩd]

A little harsh on OG, perhaps (aside from the so/so Coup De Grace).

I'm not particularly well-versed in Goblin's material - I've only heard The Big Black and Coup de Grace - but yeah, I'd say the riffage on Coup de Grace was really sloppy. Even on The Big Black, though, it gets a little weak toward the end.

But in general: give me a generic yet engaging riff over a technical snooze-fest any day of the week.

I pretty much agree with you on this - but I think there are valid criticisms of either style. If you go with generic riffs, you risk becoming under-stimulating. If you're overly technical, you risk giving up emotional power.

 

[Carcassian]

For Orange Goblin's real high points, Time Travelling Blues and Healing Through Fire are their perfect albums; for different reasons.

Both though espouse their Motorhead meets Stoner vibe perfectly.

 

[False Joe]

I have something to admit...

I dislike the great band Spit it Out

 

[zabu of nΩd]

Their self-titled is completely fucking awesome. Not to the levels of Dopethrone but still it is given way too much hate. Their songwriting is great to be honest, originality doesn't make a band good tbqh.

I'd have to disagree strongly on that. I think the album is way too simplistic, and both the riffs and the drumlines evolve at such a slow pace that very few people's attention spans could endure through it. And the riffs are pretty much all run-of-the-mill bluesiness, with a bit of awkward dissonance mixed in here and there.

 

[Carcassian]

I'd have to disagree strongly on that. I think the album is way too simplistic, and both the riffs and the drumlines evolve at such a slow pace that very few people's attention spans could endure through it. And the riffs are pretty much all run-of-the-mill bluesiness, with a bit of awkward dissonance mixed in here and there.

I love the self titled; there's genius in them there simple riffs, played well and slow.

It's also perfect music to get drunk to

 

[Mort Divine]

I'd have to disagree strongly on that. I think the album is way too simplistic, and both the riffs and the drumlines evolve at such a slow pace that very few people's attention spans could endure through it. And the riffs are pretty much all run-of-the-mill bluesiness, with a bit of awkward dissonance mixed in here and there.

Slow evolution is the point of doom!

I'd guess you dislike Reverend Bizarre's final output as well.

 

[zabu of nΩd]

For Orange Goblin's real high points, Time Travelling Blues and Healing Through Fire are their perfect albums; for different reasons.

Both though espouse their Motorhead meets Stoner vibe perfectly.

Yeah, I definitely need to listen to more of their stuff. I love rock-'n'-roll-style heavy metal, and when Goblin does it right, it's fantastic (i.e. "Quincy the Pigboy", "Turbo Effalunt", etc.). I kinda lost faith in them after hearing Coup de Grace, but I guess I was jumping to conclusions.

 

[zabu of nΩd]

Slow evolution is the point of doom!

I'd guess you dislike Reverend Bizarre's final output as well.

Yeah, I've never been the biggest fan of doom. It largely seems like an excuse to play slow, uninteresting music. From my memory, the only doom album that's really impressed me is Cathedral's Endtyme. I think they do a great job of creating a frightening, apocalyptic atomsphere on that - especially on songs like "Requiem for the Sun" and "Ultra Earth". There's definitely more to that album than just slow-ass riffs.

 

[Carcassian]

Oh, I nearly lost the faith with Coup De Grace too...they nearly teetered off into desert-rock/ full blown stoner nonsense.

 

[V.V.V.V.V.]

I think the album is way too simplistic, and both the riffs and the drumlines evolve at such a slow pace that very few people's attention spans could endure through it.

It's not the band's fault that people misunderstand or misinterpret their art. Similarly, you're arguing from ignorance on everything here and it really is bothersome. To claim that doom is an excuse to play slow or uninteresting music is quite simply both funny and just totally wrong. Why reason with someone who seems so nonchalantly content with spouting off uninformed opinions about entire genres of music he/she hasn't bothered to interpret in the most reasonable framework? It's not worth it to try to "convince you that you're wrong" if you continually blow out nonsense. I'm sorry, but there's a difference between a controversial opinion and an ignorant, misinformed and quite frankly shallow one. Controversy implies an argument, usually one with some kind of rational backing. Your only backing in this has constantly been "death metal and other styles of metal I don't enjoy are all objectively bad and lack talent prove me wrong."

I for one am perfectly fine with letting you think this, for the record. Continue on with it. You don't really seem willing to learn at all so why bother?

 

[Carcassian]

V5 - While I can agree with some of what you say in the above thread, this does appear to have become the one thread where people can say what they like about the music they do or don't like, and while I don't want to quibble with your mod-ness unduly, you do seem to be coming down a bit hard on Vhis for expressing his opinion in the "Controversial opinions" thread.

If he can't espouse his controversial opinion about doom here, where can he ?

 

[V.V.V.V.V.]

True, he should be able to voice his controversial opinions, but he should also expect backlash from people (even including the mod) who think he is off base.

 

[zabu of nΩd]

Well, it may be true that the standards I'm using to evaluate death/black/doom/etc. metal aren't appropriate for the genres. So I understand your criticisms, even if they're not very polite. But I'm still curious to know how you personally differentiate between, say, a good death metal band and a bad one (if, in fact, you actually look at it in those terms).