Dakryn's Batshit Theory of the Week

[rms]

Well, I don't believe there's any such thing as gendered superiority in nature. We assign superiority as a cultural value. But that's an aside.

not sure that distinction is important though.

I suppose I feel that video games market themselves to men, and that the prospect of being challenged isn't a strictly masculine feature. There could certainly be challenging video games that appeal to women, but manufacturers tend to avoid those narratives. I know that plenty of women in academia and in business love to be challenged; but maybe the representation of challenge takes on particularly gendered tropes.

you have to ask why aren't women in challenging themselves similarly to men at first. all video games are our person vs person exercises

 

[Einherjar86]

you have to ask why aren't women in challenging themselves similarly to men at first. all video games are our person vs person exercises

"why women aren't in challenging themselves similarly to men"

I don't understand this sentence.

"all video games are our person vs. person exercises"

Unless I'm also misunderstanding this sentence, I disagree with it. Are you saying that all video games are person (i.e. player) vs. another person? Because if so, that's not correct. There are plenty of puzzle-solving video games that don't pit player against enemy.

 

[TechnicalBarbarity]

Are you saying that all video games are person (i.e. player) vs. another person? Because if so, that's not correct.

oh shit really??? we have a genius here

 

[CiG]

 

[TechnicalBarbarity]

when was the first time you saw your kid?

 

[CiG]

And this guy preaches about class.

 

[rms]

"why women aren't in challenging themselves similarly to men"

why do games have to be gendered differently to have women achieve the same interests as men?

There are plenty of puzzle-solving video games that don't pit player against enemy.

this discussion is about men playing games to have community and challenges. puzzle games and RPGs dont fit into this mold.

so, unless we're talking about 80s asteroid and frogger wars at pizza joints, i think this should be safely ignored. or else we are adding phone games, to which I think women are half/or majority last time i heard a peep about it

 

[Einherjar86]

why do games have to be gendered differently to have women achieve the same interests as men?

That's a good question, and a complex one. But I think it speaks to the issue.

To be brief, I'd say that education and acculturation treat women and men differently, and so specific kinds of representation speak differently to men and women. I don't think biology really makes a huge difference when it comes to winning a game; but I do think that socialization teaches men and women what they're supposed to respond to.

this discussion is about men playing games to have community and challenges. puzzle games and RPGs dont fit into this mold.

Puzzle games aren't challenging?

 

[rms]

and? If we just take challenging alone, academic exploration would satisfy this, especially a STEM major.

but I do think that socialization teaches men and women what they're supposed to respond to.

but we don't see women respond this way to nearly anything

 

[Einherjar86]

and? If we just take challenging alone, academic exploration would satisfy this, especially a STEM major.

I suppose I'm not understanding what else is involved. Personally speaking, I find the challenge of academic work more stimulating than video games, but I'm not about to extend my experience to most men.

I'm not sure I understand why puzzle games can't generate a sense of community.

but we don't see women respond this way to nearly anything

Respond how? As to a challenge?

 

[rms]

comes off that you're treating competitive spotrs/competitive video game playing as a niche minority -- not confident this will be productive unless we agree that it's a vast majority of "adolescent" males in at least American society. Academic work does not offer the competitive nature that video games and sports offer, so I don't think it's right to act it's similar let alone a large enough chunk of the population to justify talking about them.

I'm not sure I understand why puzzle games can't generate a sense of community.

They can, but what is a noticeable and influential puzzle community? What is the equivalent of sports-road-trips or constant video game playing?

Respond how? As to a challenge?

yeah, what do women partake in that is for self gain as well as merely to measure up to your fellow gender and try to demonstrate your dominance over them?

 

[Einherjar86]

comes off that you're treating competitive spotrs/competitive video game playing as a niche minority -- not confident this will be productive unless we agree that it's a vast majority of "adolescent" males in at least American society. Academic work does not offer the competitive nature that video games and sports offer, so I don't think it's right to act it's similar let alone a large enough chunk of the population to justify talking about them.

I completely agree that video games and competitive sports comprise a major portion of American leisure activities among males. You specifically said that "if we just take challenging alone" then other activities would satisfy it. I'm merely asking what else the activity provides beyond being challenging.

It appears the other dimension is a sense of community; so my next question was why puzzle-solving games don't afford the same sense of community.

I actually think the reason video games appeal to men has as much to do with them being challenging and fostering community as with the narratives and images they provide--i.e. weaponry, warfare, etc. People can find challenges and community in any number of places; video games speak to a very specific cultural role that men feel expected to play. This doesn't mean that women don't appreciate challenge, they just may not appreciate the brand of challenge afforded by the mega-popular video games.

They can, but what is a noticeable and influential puzzle community? What is the equivalent of sports-road-trips or constant video game playing?

I'm not sure there is one on the scale of Elder Scrolls or Metal Gear Solid, for instance. So maybe the question is whether the community involved must reach a certain number of people...? I really don't know.

yeah, what do women partake in that is for self gain as well as merely to measure up to your fellow gender and try to demonstrate your dominance over them?

Again, I'm not sure; but that speaks to the question of how games speak to different genders. I don't think it has to do with the fact that video games are challenging that dissuades women from playing them. My wife and the women in her family, for instance, are ritual card and board game players, often to highly competitive degrees. It may also be the case that most women find themselves adequately challenged by their careers.

So all I'm trying to say is that I think both men and women appreciate challenge; it's just that the subject matter of video games appeal more to men than to women.

 

[rms]

It appears the other dimension is a sense of community; so my next question was why puzzle-solving games don't afford the same sense of community.

I think we both agree and know why this is true, I just imagine you think culture dictates the macho without biological evidence and I would not

It may also be the case that most women find themselves adequately challenged by their careers.

complacent and uninterested, I totally agree

So all I'm trying to say is that I think both men and women appreciate challenge; it's just that the subject matter of video games appeal more to men than to women.

but you cannot find any examples to back up your claim. men clearly seek higher difficulty and a higher volume of challenges than women and there appears to be no disagreement there. and if women simply take the backseat because society tells them to, well I think that would strengthen my position

 

[Einherjar86]

complacent and uninterested, I totally agree

You think women actually working on their careers, seeking promotions and getting raises, is a sign that they're complacent and uninterested? Not sure I follow that reasoning.

but you cannot find any examples to back up your claim. men clearly seek higher difficulty and a higher volume of challenges than women and there appears to be no disagreement there. and if women simply take the backseat because society tells them to, well I think that would strengthen my position

The original article was about how more men aren't working because of video games. This actually implies that they're not seeking higher difficulty and a higher volume of challenges; rather, it suggests that they're complacent with completing challenges in a virtual world with no real-world stakes.

So maybe women are more driven, in fact.

 

[rms]

You think women actually working on their careers, seeking promotions and getting raises, is a sign that they're complacent and uninterested? Not sure I follow that reasoning.

if men do this and more and women only do this -- it's obvious, no? but you've shifted to middle aged women from teenage/young adults -- it's like you're fearing a feminist is reading your thoughts at all times and you don't want to make a mistake

So maybe women are more driven, in fact.

but it argues that men find the real world easy, so no

Men imagine themselves to be kings, warriors, CEOs, athletes, ladies men, geniuses, soldiers, workers, achievers and part of a band of brothers. All of these things are possible online.

 

[Dak]

I don't intend to make this into a politicized gender discussion, but I can't help but wonder about the masculine dimension(s) of video games. I know there are women who play video games, but I can't but feel that most of them appeal to a "masculine" audience.

There are plenty of games that appeal to women, but no, not the majority. I don't think that that has anything to do with it though.

The original article was about how more men aren't working because of video games. This actually implies that they're not seeking higher difficulty and a higher volume of challenges; rather, it suggests that they're complacent with completing challenges in a virtual world with no real-world stakes.

Real world accomplishment looks pretty boring when you're weighing sitting at a school desk for years and years, and then grinding it at a shitty job while being told how shitty and also privileged you are vs taking over the world, fighting dragons etc. I was there for a ~year prior to going into the Marines. Fortunately I didn't have any family to coddle that behavior.

 

[Einherjar86]

if men do this and more and women only do this -- it's obvious, no? but you've shifted to middle aged women from teenage/young adults -- it's like you're fearing a feminist is reading your thoughts at all times and you don't want to make a mistake

No need for the condescension, I'm just trying to understand.

The article was about post-grads, which is the time that most people should be entering into the early phases of their careers.

but it argues that men find the real world easy, so no

Apparently they don't if they can't extrapolate present boredom into future success. Playing video games isn't actually harder than working a 9-to-5 job at Jimmy John's, although it might be more actively stimulating.

I think you're confusing excitement and stimulation with difficulty. It's much harder to work a 9-to-5 job that you find dreadfully boring than it is to play a video game that's actively exciting.

Real world accomplishment looks pretty boring when you're weighing sitting at a school desk for years and years, and then grinding it at a shitty job while being told how shitty and also privileged you are vs taking over the world, fighting dragons etc. I was there for a ~year prior to going into the Marines. Fortunately I didn't have any family to coddle that behavior.

That seems like a misplacement of values, though, doesn't it? This strikes me as a moment when you'd say something like someone is trading future pleasure and success for present/immediate gratification.

 

[TechnicalBarbarity]

itt a few of you have discovered that women also play and enjoy video games ...

 

[HamburgerBoy]

Yeah I think it's more about the feeling of accomplishment than competition overall. MMOs and similar grindfests are still huge and all about raking in those pretend dollars and moving up the pretend work ladder. Even competitive games allow players to find a comfortable stopping point and "settle down"; a guy might be pretty good at his favorite online FPS, but only a small percentage of them will be competitive on the ladder. The majority are content to play on whatever their local server happens to be and not greatly improve their skill from that point forward, e.g. it just becomes another habit/form of pseudo-work. I know people that continue playing certain strategy games despite the fact that they mastered them over a decade ago and use the same technique for winning over and over; it's past the point of challenge. I'm not really convinced that it's the games themselves though; housing costs are unaffordable for most younger non-couples, the reversing of the higher-education gender gap makes more men unwanted for dating/marriage, the switching to a signaling economy hurts men more than it does women, etc.

 

[Dak]

That seems like a misplacement of values, though, doesn't it? This strikes me as a moment when you'd say something like someone is trading future pleasure and success for present/immediate gratification.

Absolutely. Of course, future pleasure is discounted by many people in many cases, if even seen.