Dakryn's Batshit Theory of the Week

Absolutely. Of course, future pleasure is discounted by many people in many cases, if even seen.

Right, that's what I'm saying. I imagine gamers living with their parents aren't thinking about their futures all that much.

So perhaps I just took issue with the categorization that men preferring video games to working means they find the working world too easy. I often find crossword puzzles more intellectually stimulating than proofreading for journal submissions, but that's not because the latter is easier. I'd argue that it's harder specifically because it demands my attention for less immediate intellectual reward.

Likewise, I wouldn't say that women don't play video games specifically because they're less interested than men in the stimulation that accompanies playing video games. Giving up game-playing for committing to real-world work seems like a harder choice to make, and doesn't mean someone isn't interested in game-playing.
 
Right, that's what I'm saying. I imagine gamers living with their parents aren't thinking about their futures all that much.

So perhaps I just took issue with the categorization that men preferring video games to working means they find the working world too easy. I often find crossword puzzles more intellectually stimulating than proofreading for journal submissions, but that's not because the latter is easier. I'd argue that it's harder specifically because it demands my attention for less immediate intellectual reward.

Yeah I definitely wouldn't say it's too easy, but it's not stimulating/immediately challenging, and I think most importantly the potential time or nature of the payoff for your work isn't clear. I'll admit one thing I like about the military and even school to some degree now is that you have regular positive feedback and clearish goals to work towards, with predictable rewards. Most places of business are not like that. Games define the goals for you and generally are structured to drip-drip-drip reward.


Likewise, I wouldn't say that women don't play video games specifically because they're less interested than men in the stimulation that accompanies playing video games. Giving up game-playing for committing to real-world work seems like a harder choice to make, and doesn't mean someone isn't interested in game-playing.

Women lean much more towards mobile games, which allows playing while at work. So they aren't really picking one over the other, they just aren't following PC Master Race and invested in Steam/XBOX/PS.

https://hypebeast.com/2018/4/females-are-dominating-mobile-games-according-to-new-study
 
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Women lean much more towards mobile games, which allows playing while at work. So they aren't really picking one over the other, they just aren't following PC Master Race and invested in Steam/XBOX/PS.

which i think points to the lack of competitive nature -- since that's the major difference (since a phone costs as much as a fine desktop pc these days)
The article was about post-grads, which is the time that most people should be entering into the early phases of their careers.
read to me like an 18-24 demographic, which I wouldn't say is the heavy focus on career for the average "lost" worker in our society
Apparently they don't if they can't extrapolate present boredom into future success. Playing video games isn't actually harder than working a 9-to-5 job at Jimmy John's, although it might be more actively stimulating.
sure, maintaining sanity in garbage situations is difficult, but killing time at the pizza shop isn't setting you up for future success either. doesn't seem like the article is talking about those working shit jobs to pay off college expenses while still in school, for instance. more like the less skilled, less materialistic of the bunch.
I think you're confusing excitement and stimulation with difficulty. It's much harder to work a 9-to-5 job that you find dreadfully boring than it is to play a video game that's actively exciting.
yes, but I am leaning towards more of the competitive side and I'm guessing you never got exposed to that (not meaning to be condescending)
 
read to me like an 18-24 demographic, which I wouldn't say is the heavy focus on career for the average "lost" worker in our society

I think it could be if they went to college, and I believe the article specified post-bachelor's males; but I'm not sure, it could have been dropouts.

sure, maintaining sanity in garbage situations is difficult, but killing time at the pizza shop isn't setting you up for future success either. doesn't seem like the article is talking about those working shit jobs to pay off college expenses while still in school, for instance. more like the less skilled, less materialistic of the bunch.

I'm not really sure whom it's talking about, to be honest. Clearly if it's focusing on men who prefer playing video games to getting a 9-to-5 job, then we're talking about less driven when it comes to earning money; but "less materialistic" is a charitable way to describe them, I think.

yes, but I am leaning towards more of the competitive side and I'm guessing you never got exposed to that (not meaning to be condescending)

At all, or in my job...? I mean, I played sports as a middle-/high-schooler, and I consider academia to be fairly competitive. I see my track record for presentations and publications are more valuable (competitively speaking) than beating other men at a video game. But maybe I'm not understanding your point.
 
which i think points to the lack of competitive nature -- since that's the major difference (since a phone costs as much as a fine desktop pc these days)

I don't mobile game, so not really sure how competitive that is. What competition there could be is probably indirect (IE high scores on candy crush or whatever). There's definitely heavy on the directly competitive side for all the esports type games and the sports titles (nba/madden), which are pretty male dominated. Thrown in CoD/CS:GO and stuff too. Might be a point there regarding the competition aspect.

Edit: Regarding education, it's without bach degrees:

As of last year, 22 percent of men between the ages of 21 and 30 in the U.S. with less than a bachelor’s degree reported not working at all in the previous year—up from only 9.5 percent in 2000. And there’s evidence that video games are a big reason why. According to a recent study based on the Census Bureau’s time-use surveys, young men without college degrees have replaced 75 percent of the time they used to spend working with time on the computer, mostly playing video games. From 2004 to 2007, young, unemployed men without college degrees were spending 3.4 hours per week playing video games. By 2011 to 2014, the average time spent per week had more than doubled to 8.6 hours.
 
I wonder how it breaks down by age in regards to what games men play vs what games women play. I have a feeling if you look at the mobile game players, a decent chunk of the women are middle-aged and older. My mother plays mobile games more than I play any kind of game, especially Tetris (and Tetris derivatives) and any kind of gambling game available. She's even won hundreds of dollars playing the latter.
 
I don't follow Nick Land like I used to, and I haven't visited his blog in over a year. But I came across this interview recently. It's long, but I actually really enjoyed it. I obviously have personal ethical problems with his philosophy, but I appreciated his critique of where he feels right- and left-wing "emancipation" (and he's specific about this word) go wrong concerning accelerationism (spoiler: it's humanism).

https://vastabrupt.com/2018/08/15/ideology-intelligence-and-capital-nick-land/

Here's a little snippet:

Nick Land: I think the terminology of left and right, for anyone like you who is fascinated by the question of ideology, it’s completely indispensable. I totally see why people get dissatisfied with that language and say “We have to move beyond this” or “This terminology ceases to be useful” but I have a sense of its kind of extreme resilience. I don’t see us ever stopping talking about the left and the right. It’s always going to come back in, I call it the prime political dimension, there is a basic dimension with left and right polarities that everyone returns to, after their wanderings and complications. And all kinds of ideological currents themselves have a strategic interest in either muddying the water or trying to get people to rethink what they mean.

But in the end, people come back to this basic dimension of ideological possibility and I think it is the one that captures the accelerationist tendency most clearly. On the right end of that is the extreme laissez faire, Manchester liberal, anarcho-capitalism kind of commitment to the maximum deregulation of the technological and economic process. And on the opposite extreme is a set of constituencies that seek in various ways to — polemically, I would say words like “impede” and “obstruct” and “constrain” and whatever, but I realize that’s just my rightism on display. And there are other ways of saying that, to regulate it or control it or to humanize it, I wouldn’t try and do a sufficiently sophisticated ideological Turing test on myself to try and get that right you know?

But I don’t think there’s any real … It’s not really questionable, which of those impulses is in play and I think that it’s on that dimension that so-called left-accelerationism is left, I mean, it’s left because it is basically in a position of deep skepticism about the capitalist process. It’s accelerationist only insofar as it thinks there is some other — I would say magical — source of acceleration that is going to be located somewhere outside that basic motor of modernity. They gesture towards the fact that things will somehow still be accelerating when you just chuck the actual motor of acceleration in the scrap. And I think that is the left.

Left-accelerationism is left in a way that is robust, that everyone will recognize, they definitely are in fact genuine leftists, they’re not playing games like that, and they catalyze, obviously, a right opposition as soon as they do that because they’re already [inaudible] the prime political dimension. They’re on the left pole of it, they’re in antagonism to, then, what is defining the right pole of that same spectrum.

Justin Murphy: So it sounds like you would basically say that Deleuze and Guattari are not really leftists. They might be writing from a kind of leftist milieu, and they might have some, sort of, leftist connotations, but the core of their project is not leftist because … you think leftism is basically the position of trying to slow down the accelerator?

Nick Land: Yes, I think that project is anti-leftist but smuggled-in — this insidious thing of subverting the Marxist tradition from inside. I think the Marxist tradition is easy to subvert from inside because the Marxist tradition is based upon an analysis of capitalism that has many very valuable aspects. And as soon as you’re doing that, then you are describing the motor of acceleration, and once you then make the further move that Deleuze and Guattari do — and Marx obviously at times does, too — of actually embracing the kind of propulsion that that motor is is generating, then you’re there. I mean, you’ve already crossed the line.

He's clearly more sympathetic to the right (that's no surprise) but I think his assessment of both sides is quite evenly balanced and largely functional in nature--which is also no surprise, given his cybernetic proclivities. He's really an anti-humanist right-winger, to the degree that he favors machinic production over human livelihood; and I think that's where my ethical objections come into play.
 
I'm not sure I follow him saying that on the one hand, left accelerationists believe in a magical acceleration machine outside of the known apparatus, and on the other, D&G don't fall into this category. It is certainly not novel to claim that leftists think they can have the fruits of the capitalist tree from some other tree/without the tree.
 
Definitely not novel, you're right.

If I'm understanding him correctly (and with Land you can't be sure), he's saying that Marxism, if it's being honest with itself, actually isn't leftist. He says that current left-accelerationism wants to "chuck the actual motor of acceleration in the scrap" because they believe in a "magical" source of acceleration somewhere beyond capitalist intensity (intensity is Land's word from elsewhere). This is where leftism diverts from Marxism, in his eyes at least.

Marxism identified the functional motor of acceleration, even if leftism then went on to corrupt Marxism (in Land's view) by installing an ethical imperative founded on humanism. In Land's reading, D&G argue that there can be no dismantling of capitalism via proletarian revolution; all we can do is let capitalism accelerate itself to death, a view that's already embedded in Marx's writings. I think he separates D&G (and Marx, to an extent) from the "magical" left-accelerationists because neither D&G nor Marx proclaim to know what lies on the other side of capitalist collapse--when intensity reaches critical mass, beyond the pleasure principle of economics, so to speak (it bears noting that we're talking of the Marx from Capital here, not the idealistic Marx of the Manifesto). The communist utopia isn't an image we find in Capital, and it certainly doesn't appear in Anti-Oedipus or the Plateaus. Instead, all we find is an unpacking of the systemic contradictions of production unto the point of meltdown (and the cybernetic valence is also already present in Anti-Oedipus). That's basically accelerationism, for Land; and you find it already in Marx and D&G, before it gets plastered over with emancipatory humanism.

For Land, Marxism isn't leftism because it basically apologizes for the unimpeded and continuous production of capital until capital can no longer sustain itself. Leftism is where an agent (either individuals or the state) intrudes on capitalism and restricts its capacity for (re)production.
 
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I guess it depends on whether one is able to distinguish between "Marxist analysis" and "Marxist ideals".

Of course I think, and I think Land and others think, that if there is a "crisis" of capitalism it is in that it becomes (or is revealed to be) anti-human, which is different from "inhuman." Modernity/"post-modernity" is arguably entirely "inhuman", ie, beyond the bounds of our collective evolutionary adaptive capabilities. The Enlightenment/Humanism is a mutation that burned bright but may burn itself out. Some would argue that NRx is an "accelerant". I disagree. Using engine/accelerant/etc. lingo, I would argue that if we accept that capitalism may turn anti-human, the "left (and by extension the tradright, as merely fore-stallers)" are completely misguided in their attempts to "give free rein" or alternately "dispense" with capitalism, and thereby vulnerable to total erasure. NRx is the arguable attempt to "ride the tiger" (diomeme.jpg) as opposed to "holding the tiger by the tail" (tradright) or "fight the tiger" (left).
 
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I think those descriptions make sense, with the added element that in all scenarios the tiger is running toward a cliff. So NRx may have the most symbiotic sense of its relation to the tiger, but it also seems to be playing the short game (not to say any other philosophy is playing the long game, or that there is a long game).

I think that one of Land's less objectionable aims is to get people comfortable with capitalism's anti-human qualities. By this, I don't mean that it actively resists human life and livelihood (since I don't think that capitalism is an intentional agent), but that its functions are ultimately incompatible with humanist values. Land isn't the only person to advance such an idea. A few years back, Peter Thiel wrote that capitalism and competition are opposites, and that monopolies are what allow businesses to achieve true success. That's a fair assessment of capitalism, but it doesn't sit well with humanists (left or right).

It looks like you're distinguishing between anti-human and inhuman in that the former permits human development/evolution, while the latter forecloses it. There's a lot to unpack in that claim, and in its subclaims. You say that capitalism is anti-human while modernity is arguably entirely inhuman; but capitalism is also arguably the engine of modernity. We likely wouldn't have modernity without capitalism (at least, modernity as it's typically identified).

I also would want to dig deeper into why anti-humanism permits human development while inhumanism doesn't. I'm not suggesting that inhumanism does, only that anti-humanism tends toward scales and perspectives that eventually must become incompatible with traditional human activities/behaviors. Perhaps the argument is that humans need to evolve in order to keep up with anti-humanist systems; but then one could argue that we're not talking about humans or humanism anymore...
 
It looks like you're distinguishing between anti-human and inhuman in that the former permits human development/evolution, while the latter forecloses it. There's a lot to unpack in that claim, and in its subclaims. You say that capitalism is anti-human while modernity is arguably entirely inhuman; but capitalism is also arguably the engine of modernity. We likely wouldn't have modernity without capitalism (at least, modernity as it's typically identified).

What I meant by inhuman was that it isn't "against" humanity, simply that it's an environment that although some thrive in it, collectively we can't "keep up"; there's something like an indifference. Having a "god shaped hole" for instance. Anti-human is something that is, in this use, is so alien that it is actively working against humans collectively, rather than something more like indifference.

I tend to argue the extreme that capitalism (or at least "market based economics" or some other such label) has basically always existed (at least to the beginning of human history), and that formalized concepts of it were a part of a larger shift in formalizing (moving beyond religious contexts) that marks the Enlightenment era. Once you understand what you have been doing, you can maximize it, make effective changes, etc.


Perhaps the argument is that humans need to evolve in order to keep up with anti-humanist systems; but then one could argue that we're not talking about humans or humanism anymore...

Well this is the Transhumanist position, or even imperative. I'm not clear on whether Land is quite to that extreme or not. NRx seams to be an attempt to, again, ride it out while staying at least nominally human.

I'm intrigued with suggestions that we live in some sort of simulation, which if true would render a lot of this sort of discussion almost pointless. We have to assume there's some sort of Truman Show-esque wall we, or something other/beyond we are going to hit.

In other stuff:
https://qz.com/1486287/a-new-theory...rom-the-ashes-of-the-global-financial-crisis/

First thing from the macro side I've seen that has me interested.