Discussing leaks

[Frosties]

Are you serious? Even their favorite bands?

I can understand downloading music to check a band out, and then actually buy the album if you like what you hear. But to exclusively download music even if one really likes the band and the album? That's just not very cool.

I couldn't even imagine doing that. Buying a CD and supporting a band you like is what it's all about. That, and the music of course.

i think he meant downloading from iTunes, etc..

No I didn't - I meant illegal downloading. Up until very recently, my friends and I were in the army, and we didn't get a lot of money at all (between 90-150$ give or take a month), and obviously without any way to get a job to get more money. So, they downloaded for free. And never stopped. It doesn't mean they don't love the band. It can be their favorite band, but they still download.
Just because the people here choose to buy the album after they download doesn't mean everyone else will. I wouldn't be surprised if only 1 in 20 actually bought the album, if that at all.

how many people buy a car without test driving it first (?) :Smug: Use your head knoob, if I am gonna pay 20 dollars USD on a cd than I might as well listen or sample it first.

There are a million ways to sample albums without paying for them LEGALLY - you can always go to the cd store and listen to them there. It's not ideal conditions, but you can decide if you like the music enough to buy it or not.
If they don't have the album, go to the bands myspace or original forum, or go to Amazon to hear bits from the songs. THATS sampling. Downloading an entire album and listening to it till you know it by heart IS NOT SAMPLING AN ALBUM!

Goddam spoiled brats...

 

[Gëist]

People that download illegally keep saying that "anyway, illegal downloading is not dangerous for the band, because they can live with the concerts!".

Some friend of mine said to me once : "why do you buy albums just to have the images and the lyrics? isn't the music more important?"

We can't tell them how to listen to music, but if people stopped to tell false ideas about music industry, it would help a lot.

 

[Adramelech2012]

Opeth shouldn't bite the hand that feeds them. I accidently downloaded a song of theirs years ago from a filesharing host and have bought all their albums up to this date.

 

[nosferatuX]

Opeth shouldn't bite the hand that feeds them. I accidently downloaded a song of theirs years ago from a filesharing host and have bought all their albums up to this date.

As someone mentioned before, times have changed and now there's enough possibilities to get to know the bands without engaging in illegal activities. I mean, from the new album you can listen to at least 2 songs completely legally. Thinking you need to download the whole album is self deceit and I wish people would stop behaving like fucking kids and learn to wait. I'm not trying to say waiting sweets up the listening experience or anything, but it's the right thing to do.

 

[soundave]

@the guy who was justifying illegal downloading with his DVRing of Lost metaphor: not the same. When you DVR Lost, you get the commercials, and the companies who pay for the commercials are in essence paying for the program you are watching. When you get the DVD, you no longer have commercials, but you're stuck paying the bill now. Having TV programs available to purchase is a relatively new phenomena. Nor is it the PRIMARY way a show makes money. A show makes money based on how much companies are willing to pay for advertising time.

Stealing digital music is like stealing cable (to continue the TV metaphor). You ARE taking something that you did NOT pay for. Stop justifying it by getting into arguments about semantics: no, it's not a physical thing you're stealing. It's called "Intellectual Property". This is why IDEAS can be stolen, and many companies have all sorts of legal documents that outline how you will be in trouble if you share these ideas with other folks after you leave. Even though the ideas will still be at the original company. What kind of an idiot thinks that only physical things can be stolen at a detriment to the person who originally owned it?

I agree that all you "I have to sample it first" people are spoiled brats. Fucking spoiled. This issue makes me so pissed off. Especially when there are so many legal channels for downloading music for pretty cheap.

 

[Slynt]

I just love Opeth's so much, I can't wait. If I know there's unheard Opeth material available, I will do what I can to hear it, cause I care.
Before the web, I'd travel as far as I needed to get hold of a copy, or order by mail or whatever. Now, albums are leaked before they come to the store, so I download and listen. Obviously, I am buying it when it is released [I have ordered the regular CD, the special edition CD, vinyl.. the whole package from the End records].

So far, so good - true fans buy the album regardless of downloading it first, and as such I don't feel anymore guilty than I would had I borrowed a copied tape from a friend.

The problem is, of course, the other bands' music..

 

[Eternalnow]

Economics 101, the biggest amount of computers are in the western world.
FACT.
You may think computers are a commodity but they are fucking not, it further proves my point you don't know how rich you are by just owning a computer which is fairly common in western countries now but we are far from 6 billion computer owners, I mean VERY far.

That s not saying other countries don't download but it's peanuts compared to the bandwith dedicated to P2P downloading in western countries.
Plus western people have actually the purchasing power to buy cds.
We have no fucking excuses.


I really wonder if there is a business model without paying the music at all.

I mean Radiohead tried painfully to give a lesson to the record companies ( already a dead word) but they benefited from all the promotion of the old business model with marketing, MTV, commercials.
By giving their music free, they boosted their ego, nothing else. It was a slap in the face for struggling bands trying to make it.

The whole 'bands will make their dough with touring thing "is flawed.

People just don't realize it yet.

Have you noticed that all the biggest tours involve bands of the old business model ?

When this era of bands disappears, how the concert market will survive with millions of Myspace bands know by 500 fans around the world ?

Are you serious kid? You must be joking, right? To say that the majority of file sharing comes from the West is downright ignorant. You make broad generalizations buddy, and I sure hope you can back up your "facts" with real numbers and sources. PLEASE back up your so called facts. I would love to see them.

I realize that computers and electronics are NOT a commodity, but seriously kid, don't come onto an internet forum (which you accessed via your computer) and start spouting off shit. I worked my ass off to buy my computer, pay for my internet service and buy my CD's. I never claimed to support either side of this argument, I just felt I had to call you out on your bullshit.

Please, by all means, prove me wrong. Give me at least some faith in our future generations.

 

[pyr0rrzzz]

I wouldn't be surprised if some of you were actually hating filesharing more than most (non-mainstream) bands do... (Talking about leaks in the official band forum is another topic, of course.)

 

[Eternalnow]

I agree that talking about leaks in a bands official forum is pretty fucking ignorant, but so is arguing against file sharing without even knowing anything about it.

 

[Frosties]

I agree that all you "I have to sample it first" people are spoiled brats. Fucking spoiled. This issue makes me so pissed off. Especially when there are so many legal channels for downloading music for pretty cheap.

I heart you.

Srsly.

 

[Tepheron]

Stealing digital music is like stealing cable (to continue the TV metaphor). You ARE taking something that you did NOT pay for. Stop justifying it by getting into arguments about semantics: no, it's not a physical thing you're stealing. It's called "Intellectual Property". This is why IDEAS can be stolen, and many companies have all sorts of legal documents that outline how you will be in trouble if you share these ideas with other folks after you leave. Even though the ideas will still be at the original company. What kind of an idiot thinks that only physical things can be stolen at a detriment to the person who originally owned it?

Imagine this: A person is somehow enlightened to the fact that an album is made availible to download, illegaly (let's not start discussion whether or not the person putting it there is the real bad guy). This person proceeds to download and listen to the album, but he is not sharing it with anyone, neither is he discussing it on any official forums.

Is this really the same thing as to steal an album in a local store? Although the difference is not HUGE, there is a difference. This person is not affecting the outside world in ANY way, it's purely a question of morals. Making a "good" or "bad" decision is up to him.

Not everyone has a conscience or a sense of what's "right" as some of you have.

I agree that all you "I have to sample it first" people are spoiled brats. Fucking spoiled. This issue makes me so pissed off. Especially when there are so many legal channels for downloading music for pretty cheap.

The decision to "sample" an album is completely up to the person making it, don't you think? I don't believe it's so much "have to" as it is "would like to" 'sample' something. It's all based on morality, and all the cursing in the world will not stop people from doing it.

PS - This will be my last post, considering the circumstances, I don't think we should keep this thread active. I think some of you might agree.

 

[Alex78]

I think excessive "sampling" of whole albums(!) will lead people to buying less CDs/legal mp3s. Say you illegally download a rather accessible album and you're listening to it and enjoying it for a week or so but then get tired of it (due to its lack of complexity or whatever)...then you'll decide you're not going to buy it. What if you didn't have the opportunity to sample the whole album - maybe only some short snippets or one complete song? You might have liked it and thus bought the album, regardless of its longevity.

now you may say "but if this album doesn't stand the test of time, it's not worth it!"...but in the end this is a lie, because you actually enjoyed it, it served your entertainment, if only for a short time.

 

[Metalstrm]

I think it does boil down to morals, rather than legality. Quoting the law won't get you anywhere in this subject, because everyone breaks the law all the time. By speeding, jumping red lights, talking on the cellphone while driving. Yes, they can have disastrous effects especially if you kill someone while doing such a thing, but still, everyone does it. The same goes for music. If we had to abide perfectly by the law, you would be very, very restricted on how and when you can play the music you yourself have bought. You wouldn't be able to rip it to put on your pc for your own pleasure. I don't think you'd be able to play it in front of assemblies, nor should you be able to find user tabs, or cover the music in front of assemblies. Does everybody abide by such rules? I don't think so. So I'd rather have someone arguing that piracy is wrong because it is immoral than because it is illegal. Maybe then, you'd be able to convince the others about it.

 

[Volt]

The one thing everyone needs to realize that file sharing isn't going anywhere. It's here to stay. That being said, and hopefully understood and accepted, you can start to identify a solution to the problem. I for one think that discussing a problem is a step in the right direction, much to the dismay of the people saying "omgz I can't believe we are talking about leaks on the band's official forum!!!11!" Well, welcome to the internet, and welcome to a DISCUSSION board. I'm sure Mike and the rest of the band realize leaks are an issue, but really, there isn't much he can really do about it. He recorded an album which he is proud of, and he sent it off to Roadrunner. After it's sent off, if it was my music, I personally wouldn't care what happened to it after that. The people making the most profit from the record sell are, in fact, the ones at the record company, thus they are the ones losing the most money from the people who will download instead of buying. Once it's a big enough problem, ie their purses begin to hurt too much, they will find a solution. We've already seen two bands break away from their record companies, and who have been able to avoid leaks, so it is possible.
I honestly don't think Mike even cares about whether his album leaks or not. Opeth has a pretty hardcore following who, like most fans, just want to hear the songs as soon as possible, and will buy the album anyways. If it wasn't for the politics and business side of the music industry, we'd be "legally" listening to it right now anyways (because it's fucking done).

 

[HoursOfDebt]

how well do you guys/gals think this cd will sell?

 

[The Poona of Peshwa]

Triple platinum.

 

[Metalstrm]

Very well, I think. Probably will sell much more than GR, considering the following they've garnered since then. At this point, I'd say they are half-famous.

 

[Frosties]

The people making the most profit from the record sell are, in fact, the ones at the record company, thus they are the ones losing the most money from the people who will download instead of buying. Once it's a big enough problem, ie their purses begin to hurt too much, they will find a solution. We've already seen two bands break away from their record companies, and who have been able to avoid leaks, so it is possible.
I honestly don't think Mike even cares about whether his album leaks or not. Opeth has a pretty hardcore following who, like most fans, just want to hear the songs as soon as possible, and will buy the album anyways. If it wasn't for the politics and business side of the music industry, we'd be "legally" listening to it right now anyways (because it's fucking done).

You do know that without labels, 90% of metal as we know it would die out, right?
Bands need labels. Yes, they do take more money than they should. Yes the artist should get more money than they do.
But bands wouldn't be able to afford the studio time to record albums, let alone go touring. Not every band is Radiohead. Anathema has had huge problems since they've been dropped from the label (or it went bankrupt or whatever, not the point). Even though Opeth are popular in the underground metal scene, they are still lightyears from being household names like Radiohead or Nine Inch Nails. Mikael wouldn't even have money to pay the other bandmates, let alone even feed his family, if Opeth weren't signed to a label.
It's ridiculous that you think that Opeth just "magically" received their "one of the best metal acts" title out of nowhere - it's thanks to label's promotional work and tours when they were an unknown band.

Also, again, just because on this forum Opeth has hardcore fans, doesn't mean that everyone will buy the album. Probably most people wont, even. There is such a thing as a casual listener, who prefers not to spend money on albums.

Finally, I don't think you can accurately presume Mike's stance on any of this. I can just as much assume that he thinks that any "real" fan would have some patience for the band that they supposedly "love" and listen to the album the way it was meant to by the band. Just because you wouldn't give a shit if a product you worked so hard for to be presented as good as it can be is leaked on the net, doesn't mean he doesn't care. He can just as well believe anyone who doesn't buy the album should have knives stabbed in their eyes.

 

[TheCrackedJack]

@the guy who was justifying illegal downloading with his DVRing of Lost metaphor: not the same. When you DVR Lost, you get the commercials, and the companies who pay for the commercials are in essence paying for the program you are watching. When you get the DVD, you no longer have commercials, but you're stuck paying the bill now. Having TV programs available to purchase is a relatively new phenomena. Nor is it the PRIMARY way a show makes money. A show makes money based on how much companies are willing to pay for advertising time.

Wow, I didn't know illiteracy was so rampant on this forum. For the millionth time, I never justified it. I said it was different from taking a CD from a store, and included a few analogies along the way to make some people take another look. In fact if you want me to say its wrong, I will. Because I'm not arguing against that.

BTW, there is commercial skip and ways to get rid of commercials. Not too mention you can get the program in HD (better than DVD quality) without buying a Blu-Ray player by doing said actions. Plus when you buy the CD you get the better sounding WAV files, artwork, any bonuses, and a case, but now your stuck paying the bill (See how that little argument works against you?). Also, I don't actually DVR Lost. I don't even have a DVR, nor do I have HD. I was simply making a point.

Edited after final post below: AND PS. CD's also aren't the PRIMARY way bands make money. So, oops on that argument. It's those expensive T-shirts, and memorabilia sold at shows along with concert ticket sales, and any commercial endorsements the band or members may have. So please don't even respond, just look over and think about what I've written. Quite frankly, I'm done and I'm insulted by the thoughtless and weak arguments you've put forth.

 

[Metalstrm]

I think at some point in the past Mike said (on this forum) that he acknowledges that filesharing has led to more recognition for Opeth. But if I recall correctly, he also said that he hates it when albums leak. With good reason, too. I'd be seeing red if some idiot copied my album before I had even released it (or well, my label). Still, this argument really has little effect on most people here I think. Because many of this board's members will buy Watershed as soon as it is out, regardless of leaks or no leaks. (I'll order mine as soon as I get my visa up and running, which should be anytime now).

Obviously, the board members probably only account for 1 or 2% of the whole fanbase of Opeth. The rest, which might not be as hardcore as the people here, can easily be the type that download the album and not buy the real thing. You can't really say.