ThepOpeth
If I am haunted..
finally some humor on this thread. "Discussing leaks" ha, fits nicely.
Discussing leaks
- Thread starter Russell
- Start date
finally some humor on this thread. "Discussing leaks" ha, fits nicely.
dwoakee
Suboptimization Expert
I'm not soundave, but I'll answer the questions anyway cause they are really challenging. I'll give a Yes/No answer with a short explanation. Here we go:
No. Since your neighbor told you voluntarily how the invention works.
Yes. It would be ok if she lend you her CD instead of making a copy.
Yes. Tough luck!
Morally, yes. You're getting an enhanced product, an uninterrupted version which you can watch anytime you want. But you don't pay for it since you don't watch the commercials.
Tash
like this with the devil
This for me is the only grey area, and it's not only limited to 60's and 70's obscura. Take a band like Höyry-Kone. Their albums went out of print ages ago, and you can't even find someone hocking their copies on Ebay, so how are people who are burning to hear them to get hold of a copy without somehow finding it available on a download site? The band (well, they don't exist as a band anymore) are aware that people would buy them were they to be re-issued, but, well...other priorities I guess. So unless they're re-released or an Ebay miracle happens, I wouldn't exactly bash anyone over the head if they managed to find Höyry-Kone, or they'd be the ones robbed by never having heard them.
For example.
You don't have to download an album to "test drive" it. I've often bought albums on the strength of the 20 second clips on sites like allmusic.com, for example. I, for one, don't really need more of an indication than that, since I can generally tell pretty quickly if I'm going to like something or not. But that's in general, and I know quite a few people who are like that. In a record store, they briefly flip through the tracks to figure out if it would be their cup of tea.
But. I'm willing to bet my ass that everyone on here is an Opeth fan to some degree, and as such tend to know what their sonic deal is, and the likelihood of us liking it is pretty high. I like the odds. So it's not as if we're discussing a leak of some band that we've never heard of and aren't sure what the flying fuck they're up to and would require a 30km test drive, if you know what I mean
.As far as downloading affecting the music industry, I don't know how it impacts major labels, can't comment on that... but I do know how it affects small ones, and in turn, those lovely little record stores to be found in far flung countries across the globe.
And soundave: I've also skipped a few meals in my life in order to be able to buy the album I so badly wanted. It's a sweet sacrifice, isn't it?
Thanks for answering dwoakee. Although don't assume for question 1 that he told me how to build the thing. Let's say
we talked about sports and I kept my eye on the invention and figured out how he put it together.
Edit: Added one last question as well, if you care to answer that too.
we talked about sports and I kept my eye on the invention and figured out how he put it together.
Edit: Added one last question as well, if you care to answer that too.
First of all, Agalloch = godly.
I'll admit, I got into Opeth via a burned cd from someone in school. In fact, I got into most of my favorite bands that way. That was, what.... 8 years ago? 6? Can't remember. Back then, I didn't have internet. Anyways, a fuckload has changed since then. Now, every band has a myspace and an official site with full songs you can check out.
And NOT EVERYONE IS AS EXCITED AS YOU ARE FOR THE OPETH RELEASE!!! It's just there, so they download it.
If you want Opeth to get a bigger fan base and bigger touring, the ONLY way to do that is to buy albums. A label won't pay for a band to go on tour when there is no demand for their product.
I don't agree with your traffic analogy. It's more like your stuck in one lane, and the lane next to you is a carpool lane (they don't have those here, but they have those in the states, right?) and it's completely empty. Anyway, you're alone in your car. You can either
a) Wait patiently to get where you're going, because while you'd like to get there as early as possible, there is no rush and nothing will change if you get there later
b) Go into the carpool lane, therefore breaking the law (I find it hard to talk about morals, cause I hate that subjective word). Now, if it was just you out of everyone driving, you're right, no harm no foul. But if everyone thought like you? Everyone would be fucked in traffic.
OMG, IT'S A DOUBLE POST!!!!
@ Cracked Jack: I won't answer your questions, but I will say this: I know some bands (Agalloch for example) who are all for downloading albums that can't be bought anymore. That's pretty cool of them. They don't have to do that. Yes, it's out of print. Yes, the only way you can purchase it is to pay huge amounts of cash on ebay. TOO FUCKING BAD. Then you'll just have to come to terms with wanting something and not having it.
The only grey area, if any, that I can think of is dead artists. I mean, you don't screw Hendrix over if you download his album instead of buying it. I still feel it's wrong to download, but I have a hard time reasoning with myself as to why I feel this way. It just feels.... wrong. Ruins my listening experience.
@ Cracked Jack: I won't answer your questions, but I will say this: I know some bands (Agalloch for example) who are all for downloading albums that can't be bought anymore. That's pretty cool of them. They don't have to do that. Yes, it's out of print. Yes, the only way you can purchase it is to pay huge amounts of cash on ebay. TOO FUCKING BAD. Then you'll just have to come to terms with wanting something and not having it.
The only grey area, if any, that I can think of is dead artists. I mean, you don't screw Hendrix over if you download his album instead of buying it. I still feel it's wrong to download, but I have a hard time reasoning with myself as to why I feel this way. It just feels.... wrong. Ruins my listening experience.
Sorry if you misunderstood me. Look, not all of my original post was aimed at you. I was speaking in general.
Don't have time right now to answer the Q's right now, but will read them and give them thought later.
Glad to see you're not just getting pissed and storming out of here.
well going to university will cost you 5-8 years of your life or longer if you intend to become a doctor... and people still do manage it, and do not starv
- i never said its easy, but its not magical like most people think and it has nothing to do with luck ether...
your right being on tour is not for everyone, but if you decide to do music for living its nesesery to do so. dont like it?...THAN STOP BEING IN A BAND
i never said "why sould i buy it" "to expensive" all i said is that bands should use there music to get fans and than make money by playing gigs...easy as that - whats the deal? and if someone wants to buy a hardcopy - fine, if not fine to...
just like portishead did it...
This will definitely be my last post on this issue. I'd rather spend my time here having discussions that don't piss me off so much. Otherwise this just feels like work. So, sorry if I get riled about about this issue.
To answer your questions:
Yes. Or, better: I would feel wrong. Either ask the guy if you can make one, or give him a few bucks. Are you required to? No. But is that why we do what we do? I'm not required to chase down the busy mom whose kid drops a sippy cup in the grocery store to make sure she gets it back. But I do. You didn't think of it. Give the guy some credit. That you wouldn't talk to him about it makes me think you know that what you're doing is kind of sneaky and not exactly... right.
Of course she is. She sounds thoughtful enough to realize that the cost of a CD isn't going to kill her this once. Skip a meal if she has to. You're her son, and I'm sure you're worth it. Just like the artist (and those who make the artists music available to you and mom) are worth some consideration.
So the band says it's no longer free? I think that's your answer, right? As a wise man said, you snooze you lose.
No. But taking the time to remove commercials sounds like it might take more time than simply fast forwarding through them. Sounds like all that time and effort is what you end up paying. Can you work out your salary hourly-wise? That's how I determine whether the time I invest in trying to beat the system is actually worth it. Often, it isn't.
Damn, you're trying out every iteration of this, aren't you? Well, again, the question I use to try to judge for MYSELF is this: was I meant by the people who made this to have this item? No? Then it's settled.
I agree that the world is full of grey area, and your "killing in wartime" scenario is a good one. My father was basically excommunicated from his church for trying to get the priest (a war vet) to admit that killing in war is murder. The priest argued that he killed people, but didn't murder them, and used that as a way to get out of the whole "Thou shall not kill" thing. In fact, in aramaic, my dad explained (I don't know this for certain myself, btw, but am only relaying a story) but there is no word for "murder". It's just "kill". Or something to that effect. What I'm geting at is that we can twist language around quite a bit to justify our actins and ultimately shape the reality around us to fit our views.
I'm not calling you a criminal on par with a murderer or car thief. It's petty crime. It's digital shoplifting. How much you are hurting someone depends on what you choose to believe, I guess. I know that Mikael gets pissed about leaks. I know that the November's Doom guy who posts here has said to buy the CD's. And, most importantly, it feels wrong to me based on the criteria I have set up for myself.
I was booted from Napster in the Metallica fiasco. I DL'ed only albums I owned, but owned on tape. I thought I was justified, since I paid for them once. But I've since changed my mind. Look, I've shared music with friends: people have given me burned discs and shit. I've even asked for hard to find shit from people who have it. Wrong? Yes. And I knew it was because I felt bad afterwards.
I mean, don't you all feel like you're doing something wrong when downloading a leak? When you're getting a bunch of music you didn't pay for? That doesn't make you feel like you've done something wrong? I'm not wired that way. And I'll admit to being surprised that everyone isn't. It sort of starts to crack my whole concept that people are mostly good.
Anyhow. There it is.
To answer your questions:
Yes. Or, better: I would feel wrong. Either ask the guy if you can make one, or give him a few bucks. Are you required to? No. But is that why we do what we do? I'm not required to chase down the busy mom whose kid drops a sippy cup in the grocery store to make sure she gets it back. But I do. You didn't think of it. Give the guy some credit. That you wouldn't talk to him about it makes me think you know that what you're doing is kind of sneaky and not exactly... right.
Of course she is. She sounds thoughtful enough to realize that the cost of a CD isn't going to kill her this once. Skip a meal if she has to. You're her son, and I'm sure you're worth it. Just like the artist (and those who make the artists music available to you and mom) are worth some consideration.
So the band says it's no longer free? I think that's your answer, right? As a wise man said, you snooze you lose.
No. But taking the time to remove commercials sounds like it might take more time than simply fast forwarding through them. Sounds like all that time and effort is what you end up paying. Can you work out your salary hourly-wise? That's how I determine whether the time I invest in trying to beat the system is actually worth it. Often, it isn't.
Damn, you're trying out every iteration of this, aren't you? Well, again, the question I use to try to judge for MYSELF is this: was I meant by the people who made this to have this item? No? Then it's settled.
I agree that the world is full of grey area, and your "killing in wartime" scenario is a good one. My father was basically excommunicated from his church for trying to get the priest (a war vet) to admit that killing in war is murder. The priest argued that he killed people, but didn't murder them, and used that as a way to get out of the whole "Thou shall not kill" thing. In fact, in aramaic, my dad explained (I don't know this for certain myself, btw, but am only relaying a story) but there is no word for "murder". It's just "kill". Or something to that effect. What I'm geting at is that we can twist language around quite a bit to justify our actins and ultimately shape the reality around us to fit our views.
I'm not calling you a criminal on par with a murderer or car thief. It's petty crime. It's digital shoplifting. How much you are hurting someone depends on what you choose to believe, I guess. I know that Mikael gets pissed about leaks. I know that the November's Doom guy who posts here has said to buy the CD's. And, most importantly, it feels wrong to me based on the criteria I have set up for myself.
I was booted from Napster in the Metallica fiasco. I DL'ed only albums I owned, but owned on tape. I thought I was justified, since I paid for them once. But I've since changed my mind. Look, I've shared music with friends: people have given me burned discs and shit. I've even asked for hard to find shit from people who have it. Wrong? Yes. And I knew it was because I felt bad afterwards.
I mean, don't you all feel like you're doing something wrong when downloading a leak? When you're getting a bunch of music you didn't pay for? That doesn't make you feel like you've done something wrong? I'm not wired that way. And I'll admit to being surprised that everyone isn't. It sort of starts to crack my whole concept that people are mostly good.
Anyhow. There it is.
^ Though you have good points, "good" is in the eye of the beholder. There is nothing like an absolute moral truth. So I don't see why it should crack your belief that people are mostly good. If anything, it should crack your belief that what you believe is good is the good.
This is turning philosophical pretty quickly
This is turning philosophical pretty quickly
^ Though you have good points, "good" is in the eye of the beholder. There is nothing like an absolute moral truth. So I don't see why it should crack your belief that people are mostly good. If anything, it should crack your belief that what you believe is good is the good.
This is turning philosophical pretty quickly
True enough. Is what I despair then that more people aren't good in the way that I wish they would be (and define for myself as good)? I guess.
So I lied when I said I wouldn't comment anymore.
beast from the east
Member
lol
Even in Germany this kind of sharing is legal (if there's no copy protection at least)
Aren't you overdoing it?
Carta's
Carta's > Sex
beast from the east
Member
Opethian666
Booze influenced
- Sep 17, 2005
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TheCrackedJack said:
That depends on whether, in the case that you wouldn't know how to put it together, you would find the invention worthwhile enough to pay for it. If you would pay for it in that case, you're essentially taking away some of the financial gain your neighbour could have, so that would be morally wrong (although even here nuances could be made, for example if the invention is really so groundbreaking that your neighbour is going to profit immensely, it won't make any significant difference). If you wouldn't pay for it anyway, you're not taking anything away from your neighbour, you're just giving yourself an advantage. I would describe that as morally neutral. If your neighbour is a friendly guy and the invention is something that took some inventive thinking to create, and is useful and not too costly, it'd be nice to buy one in support of the guy. But if you don't do that, I wouldn't call it morally wrong, but not morally right either.
No. First of all, she has already paid for the music, and could have just let you hear it from her own CD. She can't know for sure whether you'll really like it, so immediately buying a second CD would seem a bit strange, especially within the same family. I think the moral choice in this case doesn't lie with your mother, but with you. If you really like the CD, and want to support the artist, you can go buy the album. If you don't, you don't have to, and your mother was right to make a copy instead of buying it instantly and wasting money on a CD that you don't like anyway, or at least wouldn't find worthy of paying for.
No, the difference between remembering something like that, and not remembering it, usually depends on little things, so you could have just as well remembered it. There were no moral choices involved in the process that could have resulted in you either having the single for free or not having it for free (remembering to download it), and the effect of that process would still be there at the time you have to decide to download it illegally or pay for it (you'd still have the single on your PC), so your choice at that moment has no moral attachments. Besides, if you really like the single, you'll probably buy the album. I think in this situation it's almost impossible to make a case for the choice being morally wrong.
No, for obvious reasons already brought up by other people.
No, it won't make any difference for the band that created the music, since you've already paid for it, so the choice has no moral attachments.
So in essence, only in the case of the first scenario there is a possibility that the choice is morally wrong.
Black Session
Heretic Misanthrope
Don't know how it's like in other countries, but I guess it's supposed to be the same. In Belgium officially it is even illegal to play your music loud from your car because then other people share in that ...
And ever actually read those texts that show up at the beginning of DVD's? Here it says that you can't even show the movie to a small group of friends (doesn't say how much a group is), or use it in class for educational purposes ...
So, officially: NO, you can not let other people listen to music that you have bought.
Being said, this is the official story, in practice no one gets arrested for playing their music loud from their car because other people share in the experience ... so in practice, everything is a bit more realistic, although I heard many horrible cases that even in practice it is way too strict.
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