Discussion about nu-metal

Jim LotFP said:
1. Are you saying that the term metal itself has no meaning? Or that it is somehow uncorruptable? Or no good if it isn't corrupted? What is your stance on the word "metal", or even better, "heavy metal"?

2. And do you really think that that music, which is created and listened to by choice, is analogous to racial stock, which can not be chosen by anyone? That anyone likes the no-bullshit original and unaltered version of an art form is the equivalent of a racist?

If I'm wrong or setting up a straw man argument, please, set the record straight.

Heavy metal was "killed" on purpose in the early 90s by those "in charge".

3. Remove the thought of nu metal as a movement. Break it down into individual bands. You have innovators, and scene leeches. This does happen in every genre, this copying instead of creating. The "fad" happens because enough musicians are copying others that labels can scoop up the bands by the dozen and market them en masse as the same thing, and the fans buy it. It's awful and horrible on any level, "underground" or mainstream.

What would be the point of this? "I play for five people and have sold 250 records, all for the sake of my underground image!"

If so, good for them. Doing it for the cause and not for whatever benefit to be gained from it.

Black metal existed before death metal did. Euronymous' "jogging suit metal" statements were just a marketing campaign for his own activities.

4. How do you keep from falling for every industry scam, every second-stringer presented as an innovator? How do you make conscious choices instead of letting others choose for you, if you're not keeping aware of what's going on behind the curtain?

The bottom line on nu metal is that it has absolutely no ties to heavy metal. Heavy metal has a pretty clear line of evolution from the 60s to the present. Nu metal represents a break in that history. It grew from other influences, got tagged with this nu metal label, and because musicians didn't know their asses from their elbows when it came to heavy metal (or just chose to pretend like they had no connection to "old" heavy metal") got popular, it became the new definition of metal. Or "loud music". Or "heavy rock." Or whatever promotional tag the labels could come up with to prevent people from saying the dreaded "m" word. This created a fanbase of millions who loved and followed this new version of heavy metal, who had absolutely no connection to or knowledge of the history and lineage of heavy metal.

It was a prefabricated rock revolution. An answer, presented by labels (where were the underground communities creating and following this music and releasing independent records before major labels got involved?) as a remedy to a musical environment those same labels had themselves created.

It also created a new avenue of watering down and selling out as people tired of actually creating real music decided to grab for the gold instead. (see Rob Flynn go from Vio-lence to declaring that Machine Head "doesn't want to be seen as a metal band"-)

You don't think that creates a bit of a problem with the people who realize heavy metal never "died"? Our identity was stolen by people who didn't know or didn't care about everything "metal" had meant for decades.

There are exceptions to the rule of course. Slipknot most definitely had its roots in heavy metal, and the members of the band would be quite vocal about it. That's why I always respected Slipknot as a band, even if I didn't want to listen to them, even when every other "true" "underground" metalhead threw them in with the Korns and the Limp Bizkits of the world. I don't know where Tool fits into this conversation but they brought King Crimson and Meshuggah on arena tours, and who the fuck else at the platinum selling level was doing that for legendary or niche bands?

And I'm told that some of these bands are now exhibiting more characteristics of "real" heavy metal. I'm not impressed and I don't care. I'd rather listen to bands that knew what the fuck they were doing from day one.

Heavy metal means something to me, and I have no respect for anybody that shits on it.

(edit: added "as a remedy" and "don't care" where I had left them out on original posting)

1. metal is a label...that is all. a band's label can't be corrupted. being dubbed metal doesn't mean that you must wear it on your shoulder with pride. its a way of organizing music, just like a person's name is to organizing him/her amongst everyone else. my name is joe...i knew another joe once who was a complete douchebag. i am not offended because his name is joe too, nor is the name, joe, corrupted.

2. when limit yourself to liking only the no-bullshit original and unaltered version of an art form, you are, in a sense, being racist. comparing it to racism is fare. when comparing music to racial stock, you must be referring to genres. humanity = music....genre = race

3. the only thing that is awful about it is the greed that fuels record labels' decisions to sign and promote bands. they take advantage of what the "biggest thing" is at that time. (the "biggest thing" at the time is what i was reffering to when i said that the fad is a constant) this is a completely seperate issue from the music itself, what you hear when you hit play. there is nothing wrong with randomly picking up an album because it was recommended to you by like-minded music fans.

and you're right, what would be the point of playing underground music for the sake of playing underground music? what is the point of playing any genre for the sake of playing any genre? the premise of the original argument in which i made that statement was concerning the integrity of music. when a band gets together and plays metal, do you think that they are getting together to forward the movement of metal, or because they love music? you say that it would be good if a band played underground music for the sake of being underground because? then you hold that this would be good...doing it for the cause and not the benefit to be gained. well, based on the premise of the original argument, the cause and the benefit are the same thing.

4. man, i'm sorry, but you should question whether or not others are making choices for you. i avoid having others make decisions for me by making up my own mind about the music i listen to and not letting the biases created by the wonder of whats going on behind the curtain fog my judgement. by letting the culture that surounds music be a part of your taste of music, you are not making your own choice.

let genres and media be a guide, not a path. you can't identify with a certain genre. you, jim, are not "metal." you don't stand for it, you enjoy it. this is how people become offended when they hear that opeth is on a record label with a bunch of nu-metal bands. this is how people automatically dismiss anything on mtv as crap, because it is on mtv.

pretend that you are listening to a song on the tv, you instantly love this song. but, you find out that its on mtv. you say, heh, whatever...you download it, and listen to it over and over. it is now your favorite song. you decide to do some research on the band only to find out that they were built by a record label, and don't write their own songs...and that there are even rumors that they play to a tape when the perform. do you still like that song?

your quotes...."You don't think that creates a bit of a problem with the people who realize heavy metal never "died"? Our identity was stolen by people who didn't know or didn't care about everything "metal" had meant for decades."


"Heavy metal means something to me, and I have no respect for anybody that shits on it."

my entire argument is based upon people that become angry because someone shit on their favorite genre.
I'm pretty sure that if Nü-metal never became mainstream, there would be considerabley less hate going around. Personally, I agree with whomever said that dismissing an entire genre is stupid. However, it's hard not to when the majority of bands in a category are musically incompitent. Moreover, most metal fans hear these bands and generalize that the whole genre is watered down and inferior to metal sub-genres such as death metal and black metal(those being the most extreme forms of metal), which are fast, technical(concerning black metal, that's debatable) and fucking brutal. They are not without good reason though, as pretty much 99.9% of nü-metal bands are not good at all. Slipknot have two fine guitarists and an exceptional drummer(however sloppy he might sound live), those three deserve their credit.

My father once made a somewhat sarcastic remark to me about current music trends (emo, etc.), "They must be doing something right, because it sells."
LadyValerie said:
My father once made a somewhat sarcastic remark to me about current music trends (emo, etc.), "They must be doing something right, because it sells."
Which is a lot better than tr00 black metal :lol:

Honestly I find this whole debate pretty silly though.
A Reason To Sing said:
Swimming through the void
We hear the word,
We lost ourselves,
But we find it all? :
Meaning we swim through the random, we hear cries, we observe the world, and many fall victims to sadness... you loose yourself to leisure, and not caring. However, then one day when you think you've found yourself, and how how you want to approach life... how you want to approach others.....have you really found out? Or is it incomplete?

awesome...thats a threatening, humble, and inspiring way of viewing those lyrics.
vampyrouss said:
I like SOADs newer stuff as it is a lot less political (thanks to the guitarist taking over more). Much less Bush-Bashing-Michael-Moore-Sheep-Speak. Serj really lets them down in that aspect, and backing vocals really suit him in that band much better. Though he does have a good voice.

But take the songs from the first album, without the boring pro drug anti political lyrics, and its probably still one of my favourite albums, in the top 20 anyway. Its just catchy, and it still brings a smile to my face. I do think they are growing up and thats good, and I think they will be around for a while.

Since this has been going on for 87245 pages, someone MIGHT already have said this but whatever:

Daron always wrote lyrics, especially for choruses and stuff. And I think Serj writes really cool shit, like This cocaine... and Vicinity Of Obscinity, just wierd ass lyrics that are hilarious. and I for one don't count SOAD as nu-metal. Someone dubbed it Post Everything Hardcore, and I think that's silly enough to keep.

as for later In Flames being nu-metal... I don't get it. I think that nu-metal is becoming more and more a genre where people put everything they don't like.
Moonlapse said:
Bands that take the Maiden and entire Melodic Death thing and add in hardcore breakdowns and generally just make it more mainstream scene friendly.

So basically it's a rehash and bastardization of what came before.

I actually think that bands like Killswitch and LoG take those infulences of the GOthenburg sound and a lot of Maiden, and just make them heavier, more extreme, angrier.