Disrespect of Fans

[Her own Pride]

Ok now I am a musician. I have been playing for a while now and I am sick of this constant vibe about disrespecting the band.

Now I'm not going to get down and kiss anyones feet, even if they are my favorite band.

I will confess to hearing the new promo songs, but then I will be investing my money in them and their new album, and in turn I believe that attitudes regarding fans has become poor over the years.

Maybe bands should respect their fans more, I am having to learn this as I play gigs. Katatonia are still underground and even though they are doing very well they are not above that

I know how hard it is to record an album, but at the end of the day you will only earn the money for it if we respect the music in the first place, putting walls up around the music only makes fans feel isolated. I am not saying that it is right to post links to the free song sites, but those clips of the music that were placed on this site gave me no indication. I would rather have 1 complete song.


I hope katatonia's new album does well, I will definitly be buying it and I'm sure many more will. I do however believe that many peoples attitude to this industry has become blurred.

Musicians can only earn respect like everyone else.

 

[yourdeadgroom]

This will be my last comment on the whole dl issue (though I reserve the right to flame someone if they deserve it )

Now I'm not going to get down and kiss anyones feet, even if they are my favorite band.

I don't believe anyone's asking you to, and this is not the issue as such. The problem I have with posting of various messages here is that Anders (and possibly others) read this forum. To post messages about d/ling stuff is effectively the same as emailing him and saying 'hey man, I just got the songs you worked hard on for free'. Not a very nice thing to do. I think the issue of respect isn't because it is Katatonia, or any other band. It applies to any industry. Regardless of any pro and anti d/ling arguments, it is stealing and it is illegal (wether you think that is wrong or not, it is a fact). And someone has worked hard to produce something, and people have come along and stolen it, then come here and told they creator that they have done so. It's not respect for the band, it's respect that should be given to any human being. I'm a musician (as a hobby), and a computer programmer (as a profession), so this is an issue that hits me in every area of my life, and I can say that I'd be filled with homicidal rage if anyone took either of my ventures for free. It takes me about a month to write a song, and several months to write a halfway decent program, and I'm not in the business of charity (just to give you my perspective ).

Katatonia are still underground and even though they are doing very well they are not above that......putting walls up around the music only makes fans feel isolated.....but those clips of the music that were placed on this site gave me no indication. I would rather have 1 complete song.

Excuse the edit, but I felt these thing were related
In regards to the first 2 statements, I honestly don't see how these can be applied to Katatonia, IMHO they are one of the (sadly few) bands that are doing it right. They have tracks from each album available on their site, and multiple tracks from their last 3 albums, so you can leave their site with a very strong idea of what their music is. I agree that this is an issue with many bands. It frustrates me no end when I check out a bands site, want to hear a song and get confronted with either none, or very few (and short) samples. It happened just the other day, I tried to check out Alchemist, and the samples were so short, and of poor quality (low bit rate), that I won't be checking out the band further. They gave no indication of what their music was like, and I figure that if that is their attitude, then why bother. I think it's one of the reasons d/ling has become so popular, if people were able to go to a bands site and get 2 or 3 track from the new album, then there would be no need to go anywhere else to get samples, but too few bands seem to think like this.
Now, I agree about the short samples of the new stuff by Katatonia, but their track record (in regards to making things available) is such that maybe we should all just be patient.

I do however believe that many peoples attitude to this industry has become blurred.

Keep in mind that the fans are also part of the music industry, and that maybe their attitudes and expectations are also in need of adjustment

 

[DoReMi]

I agree up to a point, but I also believe that Katatonia are doing well giving us the samples. However, it is also my belief that, seeing as compact discs are so expensive, I could very easily be wasting my money by going out and buying some absolute lump of shite. So I pre-listen to the album first. If I like it, I'll buy it. Makes sense to me.

 

[LoboUivante]

i also have kinda of a musical project... and the mp3 thing isn't as bad as it seems... i agree with them giving complete tracks (at least one like on mp3.com)... but it's fucked up with piraty and shit... but hey... those people weren't going to buy the album anyhow... so nevermind.. shit happens... and music shouldn't be so expensive.

 

[_Transparent_]

things would be so much easier if cds were cheaper. oh well im sure people are too concerned with profit margins to change that anytime soon...

 

[Erik]

It's not like it's the band's responsibility to provide you with full-length samples of the album. If you want those and you know where to find them, and I'm sure the band won't disagree with you downloading them "illegally" when you are in fact going to purchase the album.

Also, did you think about the possibility that the band releases 45 sec. samples because they want the album to be mostly a surprise to the fans, to maintain some kind of aura of mysticism around the album before it's finally released, and not out of disrespect for the fans?

If you really, really don't want to waste money on an album you might potentially not like, as I said, you CAN download songs "illegally" without the band slaughtering you, or you could *GASP* listen to the album in the store! Such a novel idea!

 

[StrangeInStereo]

I agree that the whole "pre-album release, downloading songs without the bands consent, etc.." is kind of shitty, but you can't expect people not to download them. It's like seeing a $20 bill on the floor, and just leaving it there. I really think a vast majority of the people who have downloaded them, will still by the album. It really doesn't do any harm to download these songs, it just shows how anxious fans are to hear the new album. A lot of you guys act as if this is all done with malicious intent. And anyways, there are ways of the band/label finding out who it was that posted the full songs in the first place. I have a copy of the album myself, which I have "legally", and one of the songs is cut off short intentially. This is done so they can keep track of who has which copy of the album(each copy given out has a different song cut short), and when it ends up on the internet for downloads, they can find out who it was that put it there. I think the most disrespectful thing to do to a band is to sell/buy bootlegs, audio or video. And how many of you guys supported this? Not only is it illegal, but the band doesn't recieve any royalties. But, it would be hard to pass up a video of them.....Katatonia could collectively shit in a bowl and I would treasure it forever. That pretty much sums up how much I love this band. It's almost dangerous.

Originally posted by yourdeadgroom

It frustrates me no end when I check out a bands site, want to hear a song and get confronted with either none, or very few (and short) samples. It happened just the other day, I tried to check out Alchemist, and the samples were so short, and of poor quality (low bit rate), that I won't be checking out the band further. They gave no indication of what their music was like, and I figure that if that is their attitude, then why bother.

You have to check Alchemist out! They are so amazing, and the new album coming out in June is totally kickass. You can download some tracks here: http://artists.mp3s.com/artists/303/organasm.html
Their music is a bit like Amorphis, "Elegy" era, some of the vocals are like Fields of the Nephelim(sp?), they are just extremely original, and when I think of it I can't really compare them to a whole lot.

 

[Wanderer]

Originally posted by phyre

Also, did you think about the possibility that the band releases 45 sec. samples because they want the album to be mostly a surprise to the fans, to maintain some kind of aura of mysticism around the album before it's finally released, and not out of disrespect for the fans?

i agree with you but 45 seconds is too short we can understand nothing there is no diffrence between 15 sec and a 45 sec we can hear only ONE melody in the songs.. it can be 1 min and the other 11 songs will be a suprise for us just like LFDGD

and the poll (evidence or criminals)
are you kidding? and the polls can only be made by moderetors (i am not sure about it)

i dont want the download the full album or the promo and i dont it to be downloaded but as i said before 45 secs is too short.

There can be no difference between 45 sec and 15 sec but there is really a big diffrence with 0 sec and 45 sec so thanx for the sample but curse for the time

 

[yourdeadgroom]

Originally posted by StrangeInStereo
You have to check Alchemist out! They are so amazing, and the new album coming out in June is totally kickass. You can download some tracks here: http://artists.mp3s.com/artists/303/organasm.html

I'll check it out, didn't know there were full samples out there, their site only has 60 second samples (which were wholly inadequate, the song I checked out had a 30 second clean guitar intro (which was just an arpeggio played several times, and had about 5 seconds of vocals, so as you can see it was a pretty lame sample )).

Cheers

 

[khayman]

'viva emptiness' is going to a real surprise, despite the appearance of the promo itself. i wouldn`t worry about full tracks appearing online, just keep checking back to the katatonia mp3.com site, as after the album officially appears in shops, the band is going to post at least one full song there.

 

[abyssofdreams]

Hmm... You're not going to like this but I think that every musician should be HAPPY for every download they get through their songs!

I mean it's the best feedback a band can get! They'll see that "the hard work" was justifiable. Every musician should be proud of its music and not of the profit it could make! The money is just a nice "side-effect" and should not be the aim after all.
Remember Metallica?

 

[the_joy_of_grief]

Download as much as you want, but buy a record every now and then. That's how I keep it.

 

[Mayh]

Originally posted by abyssofdreams
Hmm... You're not going to like this but I think that every musician should be HAPPY for every download they get through their songs!

I mean it's the best feedback a band can get! They'll see that "the hard work" was justifiable. Every musician should be proud of its music and not of the profit it could make! The money is just a nice "side-effect" and should not be the aim after all.
Remember Metallica?

A nice side effect which is quite essential to survive! I think musicians should get paid for their work. Why not... they can´t pay the bills with praise alone.

 

[Hopkins-WitchfinderGeneral]

Being a musician is a fucking career. And musician's shouldn't have to have jobs to support their art.

Musicians are underpayed and underrespected largely therefore they don't need their work being stolen.

I think its fine to d/load to check out stuff or to get otherwise unavailable things, but buy the damn album as soon as you can afterwards.

 

[requiem]

How many people do you know with hundreds upon hundreds of mp3's on their computer? Exactly, heaps of people.

Although the true fans will purchase the album, there are many many more who will download the tracks and leave it at that. I'm sure you've all downloaded stuff that you like but don't want to shell out the cash for....

So while we, of course, will purchase the album (hell, I'll probably buy five) there are always people who will just get the tracks via the internet.

And that, my friends, sucks the big one.

 

[abyssofdreams]

How many people do you know with hundreds upon hundreds of mp3's on their computer? Exactly, heaps of people.

Although the true fans will purchase the album, there are many many more who will download the tracks and leave it at that. I'm sure you've all downloaded stuff that you like but don't want to shell out the cash for....

So while we, of course, will purchase the album (hell, I'll probably buy five) there are always people who will just get the tracks via the internet.

And that, my friends, sucks the big one.

hmm. but it was always that way. before the internet there was tape trading (and still is), so where's the difference?

 

[yourdeadgroom]

hmm. but it was always that way. before the internet there was tape trading (and still is), so where's the difference?

There is a significant difference, in that in order for you to get a tape off someone, you had to know someone that already had the album (note that in this case I am talking about people in your social circle or whatever, not those that may be on huge mailing lists, or those that would sell copies). So, there was still the reasonable assumption that albums were still being bought, and copies were just distributed to a few people. With the internet, only one person has to buy the album (or not even that, just get sent a promo copy), they stick it on the net and the entire world can download it. You have no idea who it is you are downloading from, they could be on the other side of the world. Whereas with tape trading, it's more 'personal' (for lack of a better term). Also, more people engage in downloading than ever did with tape trading, and if none of your friends had an album you wanted, it took a bit of effort to find someone that did, whereas now it take at most a couple of minutes to find something.
However, when you get right down to it, tape trading is also illegal (and I don't think Requiem said it was different) and damaging in it's own way, but on a much smaller scale.

 

[abyssofdreams]

hmm, you've got some points, anyhow, I'm a person who likes to download stuff, judge on it and then buy an album if I like it. If I don't like it, I'll just delete it right away. The other thing I think mp3s are a good thing is that you can get a lot of rare stuff that isn't on sale anymore ...

According to that tape trading thing: It's legal up to a certain point, I think you can give away like 3 or 7 (not sure about that number) copies of the original medium.

On the other hand I agree that downloading stuff through the internet is damaging the music business but some people seem to exaggerate a lot. It has some negative and some positive effects...

 

[yourdeadgroom]

According to that tape trading thing: It's legal up to a certain point, I think you can give away like 3 or 7 (not sure about that number) copies of the original medium.

Depends on the country I guess, in New Zealand it's illegal to even make a copy for your own personal use (say, a copy for your car. Yes, the music industry wankers here said exactly that, and that if you wanted a 2nd copy for your car you should buy the album again. And they wonder why people have the attitude towards the record industry that they do.......). New Zealand has the highest sales of blank CDs and Tapes per head of population in the world Hooray for us

On the other hand I agree that downloading stuff through the internet is damaging the music business but some people seem to exaggerate a lot. It has some negative and some positive effects...

Yeah, but people on both sides exaggerate It's just one of those frustrating issues, there is a solution out there, but neither side seems willing to compromise.....


I actually don't have too much of a problem with a little bit of trading, I'll quite happily burn an occassional CD for someone, if I think they will like it and I know that they would be unlikely to buy it (I wouldn't give them a copy of the new album by their favourite band, for instance ). From my perspective, this is acceptable because I am able to keep controll of it, I'd probably only give someone 5 or so albums ever anyway. By contrast, I would never download something off the net, because while I think it has positives, in it's current state it has too many downsides for me to be a part of it

 

[abyssofdreams]

nicely put, I think we should leave it that way

btw, I have to envy you every time I see that little "Location: New Zealand" thing below your avatar ...
It's not fair, I want to go there if it wouldn't be that hard to get in...