Disrespect of Fans

[Her own Pride]

If you have the opportunity to test drive a car that your friend has before making a decision then you will take it.

There are sevaral serious issues:


1. I like the surprise, however all of the points raised are subject to all of the contributing factors being isolated, in otherwords people can download the music and this has to be accepted, to try to avoid it is denying people of their freedom which as we know with current political difficulties in this world suggests a blindness of what is happening.

2. When people/bands accept what is going on they won't be wasting all their time. Why not accept the situation and move on.

3. For example there are certain things you cannot download, and considering how much you pay for a CD maybe it is time for musicians to wise up a bit to the realistic situation. For example giving away more than just a CD in the package would encourage fans to buy the CD. If you are a fan you will buy the CD 9/10. If you download it and don't like it at least you had a choice. However by giving away more than a CD in the package you buy both the fans and the musicians will be happy. It would cost more, but if they are loosing a lot of money then wouldn't this be worth looking at.

4. THE BIG ONE I FEEL.... I hate MP3's. Although you can download all three of Katatonias promo songs the have been reduced in quality. Now I find MP3's are ok for listening to the songs but the sound quality of a CD is much much higher, and you pay for it. This isn't just for audiophiles either, and my justification is that we moved from cassette tapes to CD's due to quality being the main advance, getting all rapped up in Mp3's is possibly a step backward and I feel is causing pointless concerns.

Someone has to pay the bill's in a house. FOr a musician it's tough, but if it wasn't for the internet I don't think anyone I know would have heard of katatonia, and even if they did only over the last few years has any of their music started to appear in the music shops in the UK, I had to wait about 3 months to get hold of "Tonights Decision", I bought it on an of chance, but I was able to listen to it on the net using Kazaa whilst I waited.

I currently know nobody who downloads to such an extreme that it is really effecting anything, I think at the moment that bands need to concentrate in what they offer on a CD and what comes with the package that cannot be downloaded, and to calm down about the entire issue.

All the bad it's doing it's making up for all the good it encourages.

No pain No Gain!

 

[Gronke]

My view on this issue, in very short words are;


Bands and artists on a "small" label (such as Katatonia) with a small marketing-budget could gain quite a lot of free pr and could easily benefit from the "p2p-revolution" if access to the actual cds are provided for that poor music-fan in Hicksville. (Online shops anyone?!)



Bands and artists on a major label (aka one of the 5 dragons or sublabels) with a huge marketing-budget will most likely lose on the mentioned p2p-revolution, as they already are able to reach out to that (not so poor anymore?) music-fan in Hicksville.



I've debated this issue quite a lot on some business-oriented email-lists, though most of this material is written in swedish, and I doubt that the majority you who might read this understand the language or have the interest (or is even "allowed") to join these e-lists.




In connection to my reply I'll send a thread I found on slashdot.org;

=======================
sapphire writes "An article today in the International Herald Tribune provides a look at music piracy from the point-of-view of pop stars in China. China is a country forced to deal with the reality of unchecked piracy of digital media products. Will their experience lead to new business models for the world-wide recording industry?"


http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=03/02/21/2216216
=======================


I hope you got some food for the thought from my post.

 

[abyssofdreams]

Although you can download all three of Katatonias promo songs the have been reduced in quality. Now I find MP3's are ok for listening to the songs but the sound quality of a CD is much much higher, and you pay for it.

I always read that mp3s are not that good in quality which is totally wrong. For example, the Katatonia album that is for share somewhere was encoded in 192kbps (if encoded with a GOOD encoder like LAME or Frauenhofer) which is only a lil bit worse than normal cd quality. You won't even hear the difference with your ears unless you have a highend stereosystem @home.

 

[Gronke]

I always read that mp3s are not that good in quality which is totally wrong. For example, the Katatonia album that is for share somewhere was encoded in 192kbps (if encoded with a GOOD encoder like LAME or Frauenhofer) which is only a lil bit worse than normal cd quality. You won't even hear the difference with your ears unless you have a highend stereosystem @home.

Files under 192kbps are not that good sounding. I think 320kbps VBR is the best quality for "online use". (if you have a faster connection, as the files will get pretty big)

A note for you is that Frauenhofer is the owner of the technology of mpeg layer 3. (german technological institute)

Mp3 is also an old technology,there are other psycho-acoustic models out there that are more efficient than mp3.



I'd say that you hear the biggest difference on mp3-files and cds if you play the mp3s via your computersystem and your cds via homestereo.

The way to hear the difference is to listen in the high frequency range. This is where the major differences can be found.

I'm also sure that I'd be able to fool many "audio expert" through blindtests.


Cheerio!

 

[golgotha85]

I've downloaded Viva Emptiness... will I buy Viva Emptiness? Of course! I use MP3s as a way to gauge whether or not I will actually go out and spend the money I earn at my minimum wage job on the CD itself. I don't make a lot of money; I have to resort to piracy to stop myself from wasting money (like I did back in the day on COB's Hatebreeder, Opthlamia's Via Dolorosa, bla bla bla)...

 

[Gronke]

I've downloaded Viva Emptiness... will I buy Viva Emptiness? Of course! I use MP3s as a way to gauge whether or not I will actually go out and spend the money I earn at my minimum wage job on the CD itself. I don't make a lot of money; I have to resort to piracy to stop myself from wasting money (like I did back in the day on COB's Hatebreeder, Opthlamia's Via Dolorosa, bla bla bla)...

Good point.

 

[in2thenight]

i hate people getting uptight about downloading the music before it is officially released........

agreed, i also hate when people download everything and dont buy, they obviously dont want to help the band progress by funding future projects....

however, as a huge katatonia fan ie. they are my favourite band, i couldnt wait to hear the new album as soon as i knew it was being recorded. when the samples were available i listened as soon as i could, and now that the promo version of the entire album is out on the net, i have heard that too, and got it on cd....

BUT this is only until the official release is available. the day it comes out i will be there with my money, because i want the proper version, i want the artwork, the lyrics etc. im not depriving the band of any funds, im not disrespecting them - im just an eager fan.

downloading albums first to check if you like them is fine too, although even if i hadnt heard the new katatonia i would still go out and buy the album anyway. besides, cds are extremely over-priced and students etc cant always afford to gamble on something that sounds like it might be good then turns out to be shit...

 

[yourdeadgroom]

[Edit]I should point out, any further posts I make on this subject (including this one), are purely for the purposes of debate/discussion for the hell of it, rather then me trying to convince anyone of anything, I've made the concious decision to take a step back from it all, as it tends to get me overly wound up So, if you see one of my posts and think "OMG that is soo wrong" and get generally worked up or annoyed about it, then ignore it, bacause I'm just interested in this as purely a discussion thing, I'm not looking for any heated arguments or anything, just for the sake of stopping me being bored [/Edit]

If you have the opportunity to test drive a car that your friend has before making a decision then you will take it.

And to turn your analogy back on you If you can't afford a good car, would you steal it? Because that is effectively what people are doing by downloading music. The way every other industry works is that if you can't afford something, you don't get to have it, it puzzles me why people think this shouldn't also apply to the music industry.

people can download the music and this has to be accepted, to try to avoid it is denying people of their freedom

So everyone has the freedom to steal?

2. When people/bands accept what is going on they won't be wasting all their time. Why not accept the situation and move on.

because it is something which is potentially damaging to the industry. To again turn that around, why don't the general public accept that it is 'bad', and stop downloading?

All the bad it's doing it's making up for all the good it encourages.

Do you have stats to back that up?

I'm not really trying to pick a fight, I just saw what I think are flaws in your argument, and I couldn't help myself.....

 

[yourdeadgroom]

btw, I have to envy you every time I see that little "Location: New Zealand" thing below your avatar ...
It's not fair, I want to go there if it wouldn't be that hard to get in...

Actually, NZ is pretty easy to get into

 

[abyssofdreams]

Actually, NZ is pretty easy to get into

haha, if you were born there
well, tell me those lil secrets to get in then

 

[Gronke]

And to turn your analogy back on you If you can't afford a good car, would you steal it? Because that is effectively what people are doing by downloading music. The way every other industry works is that if you can't afford something, you don't get to have it, it puzzles me why people think this shouldn't also apply to the music industry.

Immaterial rights and material rights are not the same thing. I honestly hope that you didn't compare a car with a song in the digitalformat (whatever it may be).

So everyone has the freedom to steal?

I wouldn't mind if someone downloaded my band's stuff from the Internet and then bought a cd. I've seen it happen... nice stuff.

One have to think "realistic"...

because it is something which is potentially damaging to the industry.

This depends on what branch of the industry you talk about. For the "5 dragons"? Oh yeah! For the smaller labels?! Well... I'd say no - though in the long run, this is another matter. We can't judge from today what will happen in 10 or 20 years time. Let's wait and see.

To again turn that around, why don't the general public accept that it is 'bad', and stop downloading?
Do you have stats to back that up?

Of course they realize that it's "wrong", but not to the same extent as stealing that car you spoke of, as that is a "hard value", music holds a "soft value".

Therefor this attitude I would think.

I'm not really trying to pick a fight, I just saw what I think are flaws in your argument, and I couldn't help myself.....

Your excessive smileys apart;
There is no real "flaw" in the argument, as it comes down to attitude and the different kinds of values as I wrote of above.

I think it's perfectly alright to download music to "check it out". According to your ways of reason it would be like going to the car-merchant and ask for a testdrive. If you don't like the car - don't buy it - if you don't like the album; delete it.


Can you sleep well now?!

 

[yourdeadgroom]

Immaterial rights and material rights are not the same thing. I honestly hope that you didn't compare a car with a song in the digitalformat (whatever it may be).

Nope, I was just using Her Own Prides example and taking it a step further. I was going to point out that they aren't really comparable, but I couldn't be bothered

I wouldn't mind if someone downloaded my band's stuff from the Internet and then bought a cd. I've seen it happen... nice stuff.
One have to think "realistic"...

I would mind very much if someone downloaded my bands stuff (assuming I ever find a band ) and then bought it. Even if you use downloading to find albums to buy, there are people that don't, and by using filesharing, you are saying that it's ok for others to use it, therefor (by extension) you are endorsing those that download and don't buy. If noone downloaded, then the facitilites wouldn't exist.

This depends on what branch of the industry you talk about. For the "5 dragons"? Oh yeah! For the smaller labels?! Well... I'd say no - though in the long run, this is another matter. We can't judge from today what will happen in 10 or 20 years time. Let's wait and see.

I have a friend who works for Earache, I know it's something that is concerning to them, I think she has some stats, I'll ask her for them

Your excessive smileys apart;

You don't like smilies?

There is no real "flaw" in the argument, as it comes down to attitude and the different kinds of values as I wrote of above.

Well, they were the one that used the car as an example, which you think was flawed when I used it, so apparently their argument was flawed

According to your ways of reason it would be like going to the car-merchant and ask for a testdrive. If you don't like the car - don't buy it - if you don't like the album; delete it.

I would say it's more like taking it for a test drive without asking, and keeping it for a week

Can you sleep well now?!

I can sleep perfectly well (oh, you posted this before my edited disclaimer on the post you quoted, so you may want to check that out Or not )

 

[Gronke]

*jeapordy quoting*

Thanks for letting me know!!!!

...and OH, I love smileys!!!
:Shedevil: (haha)

Nope, I was just using Her Own Prides example and taking it a step further. I was going to point out that they aren't really comparable, but I couldn't be bothered
I would mind very much if someone downloaded my bands stuff (assuming I ever find a band ) and then bought it. Even if you use downloading to find albums to buy, there are people that don't, and by using filesharing, you are saying that it's ok for others to use it, therefor (by extension) you are endorsing those that download and don't buy. If noone downloaded, then the facitilites wouldn't exist.

I have a friend who works for Earache, I know it's something that is concerning to them, I think she has some stats, I'll ask her for them

You don't like smilies?
Well, they were the one that used the car as an example, which you think was flawed when I used it, so apparently their argument was flawed

I would say it's more like taking it for a test drive without asking, and keeping it for a week

I can sleep perfectly well (oh, you posted this before my edited disclaimer on the post you quoted, so you may want to check that out Or not )