Do you all buy Opeth cd's?

[Shadows Skulk]

new porsches are quite expensive. i think i might steal one because my choice of career, income, and economy doesnt allow me to afford it. hopefully, if i can get enough middle income people to steal porsches, they'll eventually lower the price.

that's basically what you said as it applies here. sorry you live in a relatively poor country, but that doesn't justify stealing music. no offense intended - just calling you out on your logic.

The false analogy a lot of people are making here is comparing an actual material item to a digital copy of music. Your situation would be analogous to stealing an actual CD from a record store, which is not what you're arguing.

A lot of people are acting as if people are choosing between downloading and buying, but the real choice people are making is between downloading and NOT buying. People who can't afford CDs aren't costing the record companies money, because they wouldn't be able to pay for an actual copy anyway.

I download music, and the record company doesn't make money off of me. If I didn't download music, (I wouldn't be able to buy CDs because I don't have any money) the record company STILL wouldn't make any money off of me.

 

[Ermz]

And neither would the artist. Meaning you haven't given them ANY compensation for their provision of entertainment to you. In that context the stealing element is exemplified alot stronger than usual.

What you need to understand is that the 'just' thing to do is settle with not having the music, because the artist's music isn't free. It's a service provided to you by them and you're expected to compensate them for it.

To say that you don't have any money whilst dually using a computer and an internet connection (which I presume charges monthly) as your means of saying so seems quite ludicrous to me, to boot.

 

[AlexGuinness]

Good point, well made.

I am waiting for someone to be honest enough to say, "I own Opeth CDs that are only copied or downloaded because I would rather spend my money on..."

or

"I don't care if they don't make any money from their music. I don't have to buy the CDs to show I am a true fan of the band, I post on here all the time: It is obvious I am a huge fan...".

Any takers? It has been a constant undercurrent for quite some time on this thread.

 

[Kenneth R.]

my Opeth is fairly bought, with the exception of those hilariously awesome "Steel" Mp3's

 

[AlexGuinness]

To be completely honest, I would have downloaded the Steel tracks ages ago if I had found them earlier (and still will, now I am back on my own PC again) .

 

[Ermz]

I'll take the first option, with the exception of 'Orchid', 'Still Life', 'Damnation' and 'Lamentations' which I own legally. I also paid for one ticket for their last gig here in Melbourne. I can't justify not owning the other albums, perhaps with the exception of Deliverance which I don't feel worthy of purchse. As far as the other albums are concerned, yeah, I'm a bastard, I've bought my favourites and I feel with the amount of money I need to keep funneling into my next 3 years of education, a meagre saving of $30 is going to further my goal of purchasing a working amp (one of which I don't own) and possibly a guitar which is functional to a greater degree than the current one. Of course that doesn't justify it at all, it's simply my reason for not owning them... what I do is still illegal and I'm not happy about it at all... but it's the way it is. I love Opeth, I want to hear their music, but I feel the rest of my money is better spent elsewhere.

 

[AlexGuinness]

I respect your honesty. Thank you.

 

[Ermz]

Now there's one drawback to having confessed all that.... *hides from the RIAA*

 

[Shadows Skulk]

And neither would the artist.

Yeah, because Miles Davis, John Lennon, Bob Marley, Jimi Hendrix, Janis Joplin, and Mozart are really counting on my contributions.

Meaning you haven't given them ANY compensation for their provision of entertainment to you.

It's up to me if their entertainment is worth my money. That's why I buy Opeth and Borknagar and a few others' CDs, and not, say, Dimmu Borgir. But I have Stormblast on my hard drive.

If I can scrounge up the money, I'll go to the shows or buy a shirt, which is where artists make most of their money anyway.

I'm not trying to punish the artists. I'm trying to punish the record companies that charge ridiculous prices. Think of it as a more extreme form of competition: it forces the company to lower prices. So then, if "worth my money" refers to a lower price, I'll be more likely to buy a CD.

To say that you don't have any money whilst dually using a computer and an internet connection (which I presume charges monthly) as your means of saying so seems quite ludicrous to me, to boot.

I'm quite fortunate to have a family whose priority is my future, and therefore who are willing to pay for my college education and hence my internet connection. The computer was a birthday present. I'm getting a job this summer though.

 

[Aaron A.]

Yeah, because Miles Davis, John Lennon, Bob Marley, Jimi Hendrix, Janis Joplin, and Mozart are really counting on my contributions.

It's up to me if their entertainment is worth my money. That's why I buy Opeth and Borknagar and a few others' CDs, and not, say, Dimmu Borgir. But I have Stormblast on my hard drive.

If I can scrounge up the money, I'll go to the shows or buy a shirt, which is where artists make most of their money anyway.

I'm not trying to punish the artists. I'm trying to punish the record companies that charge ridiculous prices. Think of it as a more extreme form of competition: it forces the company to lower prices. So then, if "worth my money" refers to a lower price, I'll be more likely to buy a CD.

I'm quite fortunate to have a family whose priority is my future, and therefore who are willing to pay for my college education and hence my internet connection. The computer was a birthday present. I'm getting a job this summer though.

Well said!!

 

[Ermz]

Ah man, I don't wanna go into a full-blown response to that because I don't want another argument... everything that was going to be said has already been said. Let me just add one thing though.

A label's first thought upon a CD getting less sales than they predicted isn't 'let's lower CD prices' it's 'I wonder if this artist is worth keeping?'. Your lack of purchases affect the artist, first and foremost, and prices only as a sort of residual symptom (but as evidenced here in Australia, the prices aren't budging from a solid $30).

 

[atilla000]

Good point, well made.

I am waiting for someone to be honest enough to say, "I own Opeth CDs that are only copied or downloaded because I would rather spend my money on..."

or

"I don't care if they don't make any money from their music. I don't have to buy the CDs to show I am a true fan of the band, I post on here all the time: It is obvious I am a huge fan...".

Any takers? It has been a constant undercurrent for quite some time on this thread.

>>>>
My computer: six years old, full with second hand and thrown away parts that I recovered somewhere.
My music gear: second (third, or fourth?) hand
My cd collection: would have been a lot bigger if I could have bought them second hand.
As you can see I try to spend my money on everything, and not just on those cd's because of some ethics.

I have a really hard time admitting that you're right about my Opeth cd's
So I'm going to defend myself a little more (I like this discussion anyway)
Copies: Orchid and Morningrise, Deliverance and Damnation. I hardly listen to the first two and Damnation (I really think that's because it are copies), Deliverance's only use is to play along from time to time.
Pfft. Defend failed. I'll buy them when I'm rich

And don't know who said it, but you cán borrow cd's in our library. (€0.50)

 

[AlexGuinness]

This is what I was more interested in seeing, rather than people bcoming antagonised.

 

[Demoke]

It wouldn't be so bad for the whole music industry to get rid of some shit. MP3's are good if that happens. And it's not bad that the CD's I paid for, I like.

We talk a lot about the enjoyment that a band gives you... what about
the enjoyment of buying something you don't like? :-(

I own all Opeth CD's plus Damnation, Orchid in tin (a present from Detric), Orchid, Morningrise, MAYH and Deliverance on picture disc, Still Life on vynil, some traded bootlegs, two concerts a t-shirt and Peter's pick.

 

[AlexGuinness]

Yeah, because Miles Davis, John Lennon, Bob Marley, Jimi Hendrix, Janis Joplin, and Mozart are really counting on my contributions.



It's up to me if their entertainment is worth my money. That's why I buy Opeth and Borknagar and a few others' CDs, and not, say, Dimmu Borgir. But I have Stormblast on my hard drive.

If I can scrounge up the money, I'll go to the shows or buy a shirt, which is where artists make most of their money anyway.

I'm not trying to punish the artists. I'm trying to punish the record companies that charge ridiculous prices. Think of it as a more extreme form of competition: it forces the company to lower prices. So then, if "worth my money" refers to a lower price, I'll be more likely to buy a CD.



I'm quite fortunate to have a family whose priority is my future, and therefore who are willing to pay for my college education and hence my internet connection. The computer was a birthday present. I'm getting a job this summer though.

Forgive me if I have misunderstood you, but I would like you to point out exactly which bits I am understanding your point and which I am missing (I am very tired, have been at work all night).

1) The list of dead people: It is OK to steal from them (as in the benefactors of their estates)

2) The value of entertainment for money: You don't care about anything except what you want. If you want to take it there is no reason that you should not.

3) Scrounging to buy a shirt: So long as you buy a shirt and look the part, are able to talk about the music that you have obtained... you are doing your fair share.

4) Punish those companies!: This is where you get dressed up as Arnie and make your stand. Luckily you can justify that you are doing no harm to the artists, but won't those record companies be sorry! Think of it as a more thinly veiled form of bullshit. More likely to force them to drop artists. But you wouldn't catch BMG or any of the big names doing that, would you? (Before the retort comes, I personally don't believe that Opeth themselves were the motivational factor for MFN signings being dropped, but that was the "genre" in the broader term that they did not see a viable future in).

5) Your family (and this is not supposed to sound as personal as it may): I'm quite fortunate to have a family whose priority was my future, and therefore were willing to pay for my education, teach me the way of the world, teach me the value of money, the value of respect, allowed me to make my own mistakes, and much else... including how to structure a reasoned argument.

They did not buy me computers or CDs (apart from maybe once a year or so if they knew there was something that I really wanted). I have always worked for what I have.

The very fact that this thread was under threat of moderator attention really highlights the quality of debate that has degenerated. It seems to have recovered a little. I find this all very interesting.

 

[dorian gray]

^agreed. this thread is getting a little better.
@gatedropper: although a tad scathing, i agree with what you're saying. before people start bitching about cd prices, they might want to ask how much their computer and internet connection costs.
@shadows skulk: agreed that it's a false analogy. but false analogies are fun!
@demoke: "social revolution"? are you kidding? if you're pissed off at CD prices, take a look at your local economy and your personal choice of income potential. it's not the label's fault prices are so high - they are dictated by market forces.
@everyone: i honestly empathize with not being able to afford it, but, still, if you don't have the money, don't steal it.

 

[Don Corleone]

new porsches are quite expensive. i think i might steal one because my choice of career, income, and economy doesnt allow me to afford it. hopefully, if i can get enough middle income people to steal porsches, they'll eventually lower the price.

that's basically what you said as it applies here. sorry you live in a relatively poor country, but that doesn't justify stealing music. no offense intended - just calling you out on your logic.

no, im not offended at all, but you are 100% right. but thats only one aspect of the problem.

i mean, think about it. lets say i release my own album on a certain label after years of music training and working. i compose my own songs and i plan to earn my living that way as a musician...but because of these programs i make much less money than i would make. thats so frustrating for an artist.

peer-to-peer sharing is like guerilla activiy: it's wrong...theres no question about it. but it's a way to fight big record companies who continuously rip off listeners. eventually they will have to lower their prices. that happened here, so why shouldnt it appear elsewhere?

now, once again, dont get me wrong. i can afford these CDs. but not everyone is as lucky as me. especially in my country.

the question is: how many people would pay those prices to buy CDs if peer-to-peer sharing didnt exist? my assumption is that the CD market would pretty much be the same if these programs didnt exist. 'cause poor people cant afford it anyhow.

 

[Don Corleone]

well shadows skulk said the same thing before me. sorry for the repetition

 

[Kenneth R.]

what bothers me is, when tapes came out (good lord that was a long time ago, i was probably not even born) they were high priced.

over time, they dropped in price because the money needed to research tape technology and manufacturing was repaid in some ways, this is usually the case with new tech stuff. DVD players started out high, then dropped and now a DVD player is the same price as a DVD movie in some stores.

however, the kicker is CDs were introduced high, and stayed high. they never fell in price. perhaps inflation has something to do with this, but i still feel the RIAA and its buddies have gotten a little greedy. i'm all for "putting the pressure on the corporate asshole", though i'm aware that bands may get hurt in the process- something i don't want.

if there was a way to topple the media moguls and provide better airtime and funding for bands, as well as push bands to be more creative and thoughtful in their work, the music field would be a lot better off. this of course is far-fetched, but i'm half hoping mp3 technology is a knife in the side of the big name labels.

we the customers, and we the artists, if we somehow banded together and rebelled against this crackdown on what's acceptable quality, quantity, and prices as well as paychecks, there might be a change for the better for everybody. (once again, i regrettably doubt this will happen any time soon if at all)

 

[Shadows Skulk]

Forgive me if I have misunderstood you, but I would like you to point out exactly which bits I am understanding your point and which I am missing (I am very tired, have been at work all night).

1) The list of dead people: It is OK to steal from them (as in the benefactors of their estates)

2) The value of entertainment for money: You don't care about anything except what you want. If you want to take it there is no reason that you should not.

3) Scrounging to buy a shirt: So long as you buy a shirt and look the part, are able to talk about the music that you have obtained... you are doing your fair share.

4) Punish those companies!: This is where you get dressed up as Arnie and make your stand. Luckily you can justify that you are doing no harm to the artists, but won't those record companies be sorry! Think of it as a more thinly veiled form of bullshit. More likely to force them to drop artists. But you wouldn't catch BMG or any of the big names doing that, would you? (Before the retort comes, I personally don't believe that Opeth themselves were the motivational factor for MFN signings being dropped, but that was the "genre" in the broader term that they did not see a viable future in).

5) Your family (and this is not supposed to sound as personal as it may): I'm quite fortunate to have a family whose priority was my future, and therefore were willing to pay for my education, teach me the way of the world, teach me the value of money, the value of respect, allowed me to make my own mistakes, and much else... including how to structure a reasoned argument.

They did not buy me computers or CDs (apart from maybe once a year or so if they knew there was something that I really wanted). I have always worked for what I have.

The very fact that this thread was under threat of moderator attention really highlights the quality of debate that has degenerated. It seems to have recovered a little. I find this all very interesting.

1) Not necessarily, but if people keep arguing that downloading is stealing from the artist/not supporting the artist/not helping the artist continue his or her career, then I am trying to show that that doesn't always apply with dead people or artists whose bands no longer exist.

2) If music is there to entertain ME, then yes, I am only concerned with what I want. If it's not worth my money then yes, I'll take it for free to spite Tower and Atlantic etc etc etc. I don't download music from artists that could benefit from my money; I download from price gouging bastards.

3) Buying a shirt has nothing to do with 'looking the part.' It has to do with giving a deserving band a larger percentage of money than would be associated with buying a CD. If it comes down to buying a shirt for 20 bucks or buying a CD for 20 bucks, I'll buy the shirt and download the CD, maybe to buy later.

4) I'll only get dressed up as Arnie if I can wear a "Shadows Skulk es numero uno" shirt.

If I buy a Morbid Angel shirt and download the CD, I AM punishing the label while benefitting the band.

5) I learned how to structure a reasoned argument on my own.

The computer was not only my birthday present, but also my graduation present that came from my entire family, and I still put $500 into it. A computer is pretty necessary for college.