dorian gray
Returning videotapes
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thanks for sharing Luz. I find ecomonics very interesting. I'd like more thoughts on the subject if you got 'em.
Do you all buy Opeth cd's?
- Thread starter atilla000
- Start date
Luz
Cowgirl From Hell
I'll look it up for you Dorian (I'm not so interested in economics/politics like you, due to the LACK OF HOPE here) then I'll PM you. I accidentally deleted you e-mail. PM again, please.
\m/
Luz.-
\m/
Luz.-
dorian gray said:
dorian gray
Returning videotapes
- Apr 8, 2004
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Luz
Cowgirl From Hell
![[KOTNO]Narrot](/data/avatars/l/1/1031.jpg?1052155060){kind=avatar}
[KOTNO]Narrot
Eats and spits corpses...
ChrisEmerson
Member
pay normally about £10 to see a show here ($18-19) + transport.
Although i recently paid about £220 to go and see Within Temptation in Paris ($410)
...insane
Although i recently paid about £220 to go and see Within Temptation in Paris ($410)
...insane
Lord_AgathoN
LIKE FIRE....
Anarkissed
BOK CHOY!!!
Since Opeth are a big part of me, I have all their CDs except for Damnation, which I plan to buy soon. I also have the tin version of MAYH, as well as the original (well, second original).
Demoke
This is the Almighty:
Interesting topic. Of course I've bought all Opeth CD's, and I can proudly say that I hadn't listened to any of them before hand -either MP3's or at stores (in Germany you can listen to the CD at a shop before you pay for it)- and I won't.
I used to buy pretty much blindly, but after some disappointments which make me still feel horrible, I tend to download few things or borrow others from friends -by the way, what a snowfall are we having here right now!-. Besides, the more bands I know, the less money I have to spend on music I'd like at least to try out. For that reason, instead of spending hundred and hundred of euros, I download that music which otherwise I wouldn't buy anyway.
It happens to me that I don't listen to MP3's or burned CDs half as much as I listen to real ones. I may be "old school" but I don't see any magic in listening to MP3's, as opposed to having the real artwork, booklet, etc.
One more thing: I've seen some original CD's at stores (take the example of the latest Within Temptation) presented in three formats at different prices (digipack + bonus tracks, regular jewel case and jewel case but without any booklet). You can imagine the last option is the cheaper one (still 9, 99, though). I'm sorry, but this is not the way; I'd rather save the money and download that getting such a crappy edition.
One more thing, at least in Spain -I don't know if anywhere else- whenever you buy a recordable CD or DVD a canon is included in the price which goes directly to publishers/record companies, even for those CDs I will later use personally (my photos, files, etc).
I think the metal scene benefits much from the Internet as a whole... and I would make a bigger effort to buy more music... but bands: WRITE GOOD MUSIC!!!
I used to buy pretty much blindly, but after some disappointments which make me still feel horrible, I tend to download few things or borrow others from friends -by the way, what a snowfall are we having here right now!-. Besides, the more bands I know, the less money I have to spend on music I'd like at least to try out. For that reason, instead of spending hundred and hundred of euros, I download that music which otherwise I wouldn't buy anyway.
It happens to me that I don't listen to MP3's or burned CDs half as much as I listen to real ones. I may be "old school" but I don't see any magic in listening to MP3's, as opposed to having the real artwork, booklet, etc.
One more thing: I've seen some original CD's at stores (take the example of the latest Within Temptation) presented in three formats at different prices (digipack + bonus tracks, regular jewel case and jewel case but without any booklet). You can imagine the last option is the cheaper one (still 9, 99, though). I'm sorry, but this is not the way; I'd rather save the money and download that getting such a crappy edition.
One more thing, at least in Spain -I don't know if anywhere else- whenever you buy a recordable CD or DVD a canon is included in the price which goes directly to publishers/record companies, even for those CDs I will later use personally (my photos, files, etc).
I think the metal scene benefits much from the Internet as a whole... and I would make a bigger effort to buy more music... but bands: WRITE GOOD MUSIC!!!
DøømedTøBeSad
SadButSweetDemønKøala
Here in Paris, Cds are too expensive.
it goes between 17 - 26. normal price is 20-22. 17 are for a new album, 26 for limited edition with dvd section, or DCD,...
if you go to a specialised shop, it's between 14 - 18.
For parents who have good made their life, it's ok, but for students or people who have no good money conditions, it's preferable to hate music...
here, lots of CDs are more expensive than DVDs...
it goes between 17 - 26. normal price is 20-22. 17 are for a new album, 26 for limited edition with dvd section, or DCD,...
if you go to a specialised shop, it's between 14 - 18.
For parents who have good made their life, it's ok, but for students or people who have no good money conditions, it's preferable to hate music...
here, lots of CDs are more expensive than DVDs...
bball_1523
Member
I started off downloading a few mp3s, and soon after I bought still life for 12 bucks and that's it....I went cd crazy and bought every single opeth cd throughout the year, the Lamentations dvd, and an Opeth t-shirt.
dorian gray
Returning videotapes
- Apr 8, 2004
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Yeah, this is an interesting thread. Demoke, what is a "canon"? A tax?
The thing I still don't understand is that downloading music from the internet is STEALING. Why does everyone just shrug their shoulders at this? I realize many of you are poor students but when I was poor - which was the first 25 of my 28 years - I didn't fucking buy stuff. And I sure as hell didn't steal it.
But I think there are some interesting arguments here. I think it was Moonlapse who said he feels the internet is good for underground metal bands in the long run. According to him, the bands aren't losing any money when people steal CDs. When people download their music, it makes them want to see their shows, which supports the bands more than CD sales ever would. That's pretty interesting to me. I would like to see some evidence if anyone has any.
It amazes me to hear that some broke college student has 1000 albums on his computer. Meanwhile, the wife and I are pulling down 6 figures and I still have about 40 CDs. I'm not trying to sound holier-than-thou. I surprise myself with how evil I can be on a daily basis. I've just realized that it's hard to segment parts of your life. It's difficult to steal and not that let that behavior leak into your marriage or your job or....whatever.
one other thing: what if your computer breaks? has this ever happened to any of you?
The thing I still don't understand is that downloading music from the internet is STEALING. Why does everyone just shrug their shoulders at this? I realize many of you are poor students but when I was poor - which was the first 25 of my 28 years - I didn't fucking buy stuff. And I sure as hell didn't steal it.
But I think there are some interesting arguments here. I think it was Moonlapse who said he feels the internet is good for underground metal bands in the long run. According to him, the bands aren't losing any money when people steal CDs. When people download their music, it makes them want to see their shows, which supports the bands more than CD sales ever would. That's pretty interesting to me. I would like to see some evidence if anyone has any.
It amazes me to hear that some broke college student has 1000 albums on his computer. Meanwhile, the wife and I are pulling down 6 figures and I still have about 40 CDs. I'm not trying to sound holier-than-thou. I surprise myself with how evil I can be on a daily basis. I've just realized that it's hard to segment parts of your life. It's difficult to steal and not that let that behavior leak into your marriage or your job or....whatever.
one other thing: what if your computer breaks? has this ever happened to any of you?
Demoke
This is the Almighty:
Yes, it's like a tax, an amount of money which goes to record companies whether you use the CDs to "steal" music or not.
Dorian, downloading music from the Internet doesn't make anybody feel guilty of anything. Buying burned CDs in the streets from an immigrant doesn't make people feel bad. In fact, people feel bad about paying huge amounts of money for something which could be accesible for less money. That's why people shrug their shoulders at this.
Does MTV take away money from band by broadcasting a whole DVD? Of course they have paid the record companies, etc. but the artist is getting something "exposure," and this makes the artist known, and this, in turn, leads to bigger sales.
Underground metal bands have in the Internet their own "MTV" actually, as more people can reach them, can get to know them. It's better to be talked about than not being talked about.
I would like to see some evidence about the fact that the Internet and MP3's reduce the number of records a band sales, too. Did Opeth sale fewer copies of Damnation than Orchid?
There're many ways to keep your files safe. I'll explain that another day.
Signed: a little thief
Dorian, downloading music from the Internet doesn't make anybody feel guilty of anything. Buying burned CDs in the streets from an immigrant doesn't make people feel bad. In fact, people feel bad about paying huge amounts of money for something which could be accesible for less money. That's why people shrug their shoulders at this.
Does MTV take away money from band by broadcasting a whole DVD? Of course they have paid the record companies, etc. but the artist is getting something "exposure," and this makes the artist known, and this, in turn, leads to bigger sales.
Underground metal bands have in the Internet their own "MTV" actually, as more people can reach them, can get to know them. It's better to be talked about than not being talked about.
I would like to see some evidence about the fact that the Internet and MP3's reduce the number of records a band sales, too. Did Opeth sale fewer copies of Damnation than Orchid?
There're many ways to keep your files safe. I'll explain that another day.
Signed: a little thief
Lord_AgathoN
LIKE FIRE....
Dorian you´re really oldskool ^^
The internet is probable used most for downloading music and everyone around you does it! Sounds gay, but i know nobody who hasn´t done it. I have around 400-500cds and i still buy loads of cds. But like already said, if you bought shit more then once, you wont do it again. Download a cd, try it out......buy it if you like it - thats how it should be done. Stupid that most people just download and never buy......
I would also agree with the fact, already mentioned, that i buy more cds since iam downloading music. Because you get to know and you try so much beautiful music, that you wouldnt buy blindly....
The internet is probable used most for downloading music and everyone around you does it! Sounds gay, but i know nobody who hasn´t done it. I have around 400-500cds and i still buy loads of cds. But like already said, if you bought shit more then once, you wont do it again. Download a cd, try it out......buy it if you like it - thats how it should be done. Stupid that most people just download and never buy......
I would also agree with the fact, already mentioned, that i buy more cds since iam downloading music. Because you get to know and you try so much beautiful music, that you wouldnt buy blindly....
dorian gray
Returning videotapes
- Apr 8, 2004
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Thanks, Demoke. Interesting thoughts. I too, would like to see evidence that pirated music reduces income for bands. I've heard about it (hence, my argument) but never really researched it too much.
I don't think Damnation and Orchid is a good comparison. Damnation was heavily advertised by the label as they realized it was a much more accessible album. The DVD is essentially a marketing tool for Damnation. The difference in sales between those two albums has nothing to do with stolen music, I think.
I would agree with you on your MTV scenario. However, during negotiations, the owner of the rights of the DVD would most likely have included the soft costs of people recording the DVD while it was being broadcast. That doesn't necessarily mean that the artist makes more money - it simply offsets the perceived loss due to stealing.
Business models aren't absolute and I'm not saying corporations don't lose money but the majority of the time, they are not going to get fucked over. Stolen merchandise simply raises the price of the goods. In the case of art - music - the only person losing is the artist. The price of the CD escalates until the market will no longer bear it and the label will eventually drop the artist in favor of a more profitable artist.
I can appreciate your exposure hypothesis but I don't see how you're connecting it to the internet. Companies pay out huge amount of money for exposure and in some cases, get paid for it (as in your MTV - DVD scenario). It's vitally important to the profitibility of the product. But we are talking about stolen music. I don't have any numbers to share but you said so yourself that people aren't going to pay for something they can get for free. I can't tell you why CD prices in Europe are so high. I imagine that there are many factors other than the internet, but stealing it doesn't help.
The bottom line of my argument it this: Downloading music is illegal. It's illegal for a reason. People who have a vested interest are losing that interest as a result of inappropriate market forces - the force in this instance, is the stealing of music. People are losing money. It doesn't matter that the artist isn't making money from CD sales does it? If you were in a band and you went throught the effort and expense to record a CD, would you want someone downloading it off the internet for free? If you could somehow justify that your expense would be made up by the theives eventually going to your concerts, would you no longer care? I doubt it. How could you ever prove to yourself what you don't know?
My argument isn't set in stone and I'm willing to change it but I just feel that things are illegal for a reason.
I don't think Damnation and Orchid is a good comparison. Damnation was heavily advertised by the label as they realized it was a much more accessible album. The DVD is essentially a marketing tool for Damnation. The difference in sales between those two albums has nothing to do with stolen music, I think.
I would agree with you on your MTV scenario. However, during negotiations, the owner of the rights of the DVD would most likely have included the soft costs of people recording the DVD while it was being broadcast. That doesn't necessarily mean that the artist makes more money - it simply offsets the perceived loss due to stealing.
Business models aren't absolute and I'm not saying corporations don't lose money but the majority of the time, they are not going to get fucked over. Stolen merchandise simply raises the price of the goods. In the case of art - music - the only person losing is the artist. The price of the CD escalates until the market will no longer bear it and the label will eventually drop the artist in favor of a more profitable artist.
I can appreciate your exposure hypothesis but I don't see how you're connecting it to the internet. Companies pay out huge amount of money for exposure and in some cases, get paid for it (as in your MTV - DVD scenario). It's vitally important to the profitibility of the product. But we are talking about stolen music. I don't have any numbers to share but you said so yourself that people aren't going to pay for something they can get for free. I can't tell you why CD prices in Europe are so high. I imagine that there are many factors other than the internet, but stealing it doesn't help.
The bottom line of my argument it this: Downloading music is illegal. It's illegal for a reason. People who have a vested interest are losing that interest as a result of inappropriate market forces - the force in this instance, is the stealing of music. People are losing money. It doesn't matter that the artist isn't making money from CD sales does it? If you were in a band and you went throught the effort and expense to record a CD, would you want someone downloading it off the internet for free? If you could somehow justify that your expense would be made up by the theives eventually going to your concerts, would you no longer care? I doubt it. How could you ever prove to yourself what you don't know?
My argument isn't set in stone and I'm willing to change it but I just feel that things are illegal for a reason.
deliverance
ecnareviled
dorian gray said:
Is it really illegal? Look at this example: A friend of mine is a Romanian, and he told me he knew something about a black metal band from transsylvania, Negura Bunget. I got interested, downloaded some of their stuff, and it is really cool. Big problem, absolutely no cd store around has got them. What else can I do? Calling to Romania, hey send me a cd? Hm, I actually could...
Anyway, I sketched the idea a bit. Those stupid record stores in Belguim don't dare to sell anything else than Spitney Brears and shit like that. And before I wish to consider ordering a cd, I really want to know that it's quality, and I don't think that what in this perspective downloading is illegal.
Demoke
This is the Almighty:
You can compare Orchid or Morningrise with Still Life if you want. The Internet, and not necessarily the label, has made it possible for Opeth to sell more CDs; first of all, Opeth's music and, second, MP3's are pretty much a big reason why Opeth's sales go on increasing, a big reason why more people go to Opeth shows and I'm convinced that there are more Still Life MP3's around than Orchid. These MP3's are from people who wanted to check beforehand what Opeth sound like before spending some bucks, or from some people who did never intend to buy the CD and still can expand their musical culture without risking the money.
Here, then, either record labels go bankrupt or have to change marketing strategies somehow. Is it that some artists are more affected by MP3's than others? I'm not sure about this; what I'm convinced of is that Opeth couldn't have thought in the beginning that they would become as popular as they are now. I also think the downloading of MP3's is proportional with the number of copies that are sold...
With this "stolen" music, companies have to invest even less money to get bands exposed; the buyer is not an isolated person; luckily we live in a society in which I can be talking to you, whom I would have never met in my whole life, and can tell you: "look this band..." All that raises a possibility of you buying the CD. Mind you, I'm not supporting MP3's and discarding the real CD's. Of course, I always aim at the latter, but I want to make sure that I'll enjoy what I buy. It's expensive enough.
You're wrong. CD's in Europe are now cheaper than they've ever been. I bought my first real CD in 1992, and its price was (2499 pesetas = 15). Now, 13 years later, CD's cost... the same!
I could give you some bands' web pages where you can download their music for free! Start by checking MrNiel's. It's worth a download, I can tell you. If his band ever releases a CD, now I'll be getting it. What the hell, I think that since I've downloaded some stuff, I also buy more music than ever.
I agree with you on this point. I'm willing to spend my money on CD's but I want to get QUALITY, and this should be an effort done by everybody involved in the music business. I don't want to get my money stolen, either!
Ermz
¯\(°_o)/¯
There should be a push to offer the consumer more material items with CD purchases. The only thing at the moment that CDs offer over their naughty MP3 equivalents is
1) Higher sound quality (although this is negligible to most people as a VBR MP3 is more than adequate for them)
2) Booklet/album art/lyrics/credits etc. Some aesthetic material to associate with the CD and hold in your hands feeling good about yourself.
3) The altruistic sense that your monetary contribution is going to further the band's relationship with their label, or perhaps that you feel your money was well spent and will go into the right pockets (hah!).
These days that just isn't enough. Before I left school late last year, I was in an internetworking course. You can imagine the sort of geeks to be found within. Many of them had entire hard drives dedicated to hoarding stores and stores of mp3s... many of which they'd never listen to. With that, none of them actually felt the least bit of incentive to actually purchase a record. This in my opinion is a blind disrespect for the art and deserves a solid bitch slap.
But I'll support my initial claim. Go to gigs whenever you can. There is nothing that shows support more than booking out a venue and giving solid support to your favourite acts. Aside from a good cut of the money going to the band, you're also showing their road crew/manager/promoter that they have solid support.
1) Higher sound quality (although this is negligible to most people as a VBR MP3 is more than adequate for them)
2) Booklet/album art/lyrics/credits etc. Some aesthetic material to associate with the CD and hold in your hands feeling good about yourself.
3) The altruistic sense that your monetary contribution is going to further the band's relationship with their label, or perhaps that you feel your money was well spent and will go into the right pockets (hah!).
These days that just isn't enough. Before I left school late last year, I was in an internetworking course. You can imagine the sort of geeks to be found within. Many of them had entire hard drives dedicated to hoarding stores and stores of mp3s... many of which they'd never listen to. With that, none of them actually felt the least bit of incentive to actually purchase a record. This in my opinion is a blind disrespect for the art and deserves a solid bitch slap.
But I'll support my initial claim. Go to gigs whenever you can. There is nothing that shows support more than booking out a venue and giving solid support to your favourite acts. Aside from a good cut of the money going to the band, you're also showing their road crew/manager/promoter that they have solid support.
