Does Opeth use auto-tune in recordings?

[sotua]

For the sake of futility id like to say a few words more...

I let some time pass to see if something will change and, nope, im not happy with either autotune or how the drums were produced on recent O records. I might lack some insight or grasp, but for all the competence and knowledge guys like Nicholas, Cyrosis, Davo or XOPETHX showed, i havent heard any argument which would help me understand why sampling drums (especiallly Sneap's way) would be the right solution for the band artistically, so i have to trust my own judgment. I personally see Opeth's music as fine art and as such i think it would be much better if they stayed true to some more traditional recording methods. Heck it couldnt have gone worse than BWP or SL or MAYH... Ive been trying to listen to some Deliverance songs over and over again, and its weird, i kind of block, all those drum parts in Wreath or MA that i liked so much... i just dont know what to think any more. Its like when you see fake nails or fake teeth - looks kinda nice but its still fake, and once you know it isnt real it doesnt affect you in the same way. Perhaps it would give richer and fuller sound to some other band, but with Opeth its like using pesticides in organic farming, or like adding some fresh paint to "fix" a Rembrandt painting or whatever... Just not what i feel is right at all.

I just wish i didnt know about this, i dont care if its weak that i say that, id be better off if i enjoyed their music for couple of years more and then found out, this is way too early to lose zest like this. Worst of all, all the other music sounds weak to me now. I so wish someone would ask Mike about this in an interview, i guess he could explain it the best, i still feel right words must exist to put the point across to someone who doesnt know anything about making music first hand, but cares enough to think about methods being used in its production; if anything, im glad that the rest of the people here find it ok and that it doesnt affect their pleasure in Opeth's music.

Well, sucks to be you then - I understand what you're saying, but I think you're getting far too hung up on trivial stuff in a way that is diminishing your enjoyment of such music.

BTW, here's something to ruin the rest of the Opeth catalog for you: I'll bet you a hundred bucks that practically no Opeth song has all the parts recorded in one take/without punch-ins.

 

[truhlo]

im ok with punch-ins, thats within my philosophy of "studio as an instrument".

but thanks for saying that you get what i mean, it may help me to overcome that and see that it indeed is trivial (well, AT i think it really is but the drums... i still need some explanation in order to "get it"...). Perhaps its a good occasion to say that all this may have to do with OCD from which ive severely suffered in the past so i developed some kind of pathology of disappointment, could have to do with that too...

 

[Mr Samsara]

I haven't read most of the posts in this thread, but I hope this fits.

I separate the bands records from the bands live performances. I've listened to everything that they have recorded, and they are my favorite band hands down. I've seen them play many times, and they are fantastic live. Mike can sing and growl as well as anyone, and all the members of the band are very talented musicians. Production techniques do not tinge my listening in the least. I know that they are not some fake ass "studio only" band, who can't produce awesome music in a live setting... it's just different live. The talent is real.

 

[sotua]

im ok with punch-ins, thats within my philosophy of "studio as an instrument".

but thanks for saying that you get what i mean, it may help me to overcome that and see that it indeed is trivial (well, AT i think it really is but the drums... i still need some explanation in order to "get it"...). Perhaps its a good occasion to say that all this may have to do with OCD from which ive severely suffered in the past so i developed some kind of pathology of disappointment, could have to do with that too...

Try to work on it - I despair of thinking what would life be if somehow my enjoyment of "Deliverance" was diminished.

As for the drum sampling - have you noticed that Axe plays the outtro to Deliverance in a different way than the way Lopez did? During the double-bass "burst", he leaves out one hi-hat stroke. These are small things that go unnoticed in a live setting (I actually caught it by watching, not listening!) but that will stick out on a studio setting. Using the 50% sample/live mix on the drum sound helps even out stuff that would sound odd in recording, just like AT (if properly used - Cher need not apply) evens out kinks in the vocal performance that would stick out in the studio recording.

Also, take in Samsara's point: You've heard Opeth live, you know what they're capable of. It isn't like they're a bunch of guys who made an audition based on looks and can't play their way out of a wet paper bag live.

Hope you get over it

 

[truhlo]

As for the drum sampling - have you noticed that Axe plays the outtro to Deliverance in a different way than the way Lopez did? During the double-bass "burst", he leaves out one hi-hat stroke. These are small things that go unnoticed in a live setting (I actually caught it by watching, not listening!) but that will stick out on a studio setting. Using the 50% sample/live mix on the drum sound helps even out stuff that would sound odd in recording, just like AT (if properly used - Cher need not apply) evens out kinks in the vocal performance that would stick out in the studio recording.

Well, thats interesting, i will pay attention...

Try to work on it - I despair of thinking what would life be if somehow my enjoyment of "Deliverance" was diminished.

Also, take in Samsara's point: You've heard Opeth live, you know what they're capable of. It isn't like they're a bunch of guys who made an audition based on looks and can't play their way out of a wet paper bag live.

Hope you get over it

OK, thanks, ill bear that in mind What i meant to say was that it is precisely because of theyre so good live they dont need engineering tricks to boost their sound. But i guess i should remember they must know better... Yet i cant stop thinking what one real good classical musician would think of that... I hear him complaining all the time, thats like a boogieman in my head

 

[NicholasDWolfwood]

Try to work on it - I despair of thinking what would life be if somehow my enjoyment of "Deliverance" was diminished.

As for the drum sampling - have you noticed that Axe plays the outtro to Deliverance in a different way than the way Lopez did? During the double-bass "burst", he leaves out one hi-hat stroke. These are small things that go unnoticed in a live setting (I actually caught it by watching, not listening!) but that will stick out on a studio setting. Using the 50% sample/live mix on the drum sound helps even out stuff that would sound odd in recording, just like AT (if properly used - Cher need not apply) evens out kinks in the vocal performance that would stick out in the studio recording.

Also, take in Samsara's point: You've heard Opeth live, you know what they're capable of. It isn't like they're a bunch of guys who made an audition based on looks and can't play their way out of a wet paper bag live.

Hope you get over it

Which part are you talking about, the polyrhythm? Or are you talking about the bursts that come after that, before it goes back into the polyrhythm? Or something before that?

 

[sotua]

Which part are you talking about, the polyrhythm? Or are you talking about the bursts that come after that, before it goes back into the polyrhythm? Or something before that?

During the polyrhythm. By "burst" I mean the fast double-bass run that's almost at the end of the poly pattern, at 6 seconds in this video:

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Z4A2-VQzEk&feature=player_embedded[/ame]

Sorry if it isn't really visible that Axe does a much shorter swing on that hit with his right hand, between ripping it from DVD and youtube re-encoding the video quality all but died(*)... but you can hear the difference in the hi-hat pattern, whereas Lopez had it practiced to keep the hi-hat completely steady:



(*) if you're interested in the "video evidence", I can upload the video file somewhere, it's around 13MB or so...

 

[NicholasDWolfwood]

it sounds similar between the two videos but I'll check it out on some of the good boots I have from the later gr legs and from the ws legs

 

[sotua]

it sounds similar between the two videos but I'll check it out on some of the good boots I have from the later gr legs and from the ws legs

They sound very similar, the diff is 1 hi-hat stroke. Watch for Axe doing a very short swing on one of the hi-hat strokes that go with the double-bass roll.

 

[truhlo]

Fuck me, stupid as fuck, i properly understood what triggering drums does only two nights ago - nothing wrong with that; Lopez's performance is still there, its just like he had a different kit, different kick and snare that is, but playing-wise its all there... Nothing fake about it.

I really apologize for making such fuss over nothing really, i just misunderstood some parts in your posts and made wrong conclusions. Im not gonna explain, it would only prolong the agony, im just gonna say im really sorry.

 

[Frosties]

@ Sotua - thanks for uploading that. After I watched the original with Lopez I could tell that Axe just doesn't use the hi-hat while going for double bass. And while I'm no drummer, I was sure that someone in Axe's league could pull something like that off. Is it that difficult to play?

 

[Hedon-]

@ Sotua - thanks for uploading that. After I watched the original with Lopez I could tell that Axe just doesn't use the hi-hat while going for double bass. And while I'm no drummer, I was sure that someone in Axe's league could pull something like that off. Is it that difficult to play?

no
i can play the outro to deliverance, playing drums for less than a year. not sounding too good, but thats a sound issue, like, beginners never sound like the pros on any instrument. coordination and technical point of view, axe can do it in his sleep any way he wants

 

[pero_o]

Anyway, what baffles me is not so much the possibility (and i see its way more probable than i ever thought) that Opeth would use auto-tune to whatever extent, it is that i just cant find the well thought out explanation, rationale, for using auto-tune without harming your integrity as an artist;

I don't really see how slightly correcting your pitch hurts your integrity as an artist. It might slightly hurt your integrity as a perfomer, and even then in my opinion only if it is used when you are singing live (and even then, as far as i know, it produces a more noticeable effect when used live, not a slight tweak, so in live situations i guess it's used more as an effect rather than as a correction). So tell me, why does your art lose it's value if you use software to make it sound (or look) better, I think its the finished product that matters. And if you say that it loses character, I dont think that incorrect pitch adds to the character of the singing, it usually just makes it sound unpleasant. I think Mikael is a great singer and in relatively modern music I kind of take software corrections for granted.

I must have used words with the root -correct at least a million times

p.s. I think you are worrying about this more than you need to, usually the corrections are hardly noticeable.

 

[magicelf]

You basically gotta ask yourself this. Does kollias bring the fucking thunder live? Yes, so who cares if he used triggers on record?

It's funny how nonmusicians will say that bands don't need to be using these things when I doubt they could even drum a single measure off annihilation of the wicked at 1/4th the tempo.

 

[sotua]

@ Sotua - thanks for uploading that. After I watched the original with Lopez I could tell that Axe just doesn't use the hi-hat while going for double bass. And while I'm no drummer, I was sure that someone in Axe's league could pull something like that off. Is it that difficult to play?

Nah, I don't think so. In isolation one might think that Axe does have a problem with that, but in the light of how he nailed the rest of the catalog live, including more complex/difficult parts, with no problem, it's clearly that Axe prefers to play it that way.

It still irritates me - one of the aspects I loved of that part is that Lopez kept a steady hat over all the odd-timed stuff going on with the snare and double bass.

 

[sotua]

Fuck me, stupid as fuck, i properly understood what triggering drums does only two nights ago - nothing wrong with that; Lopez's performance is still there, its just like he had a different kit, different kick and snare that is, but playing-wise its all there... Nothing fake about it.

I really apologize for making such fuss over nothing really, i just misunderstood some parts in your posts and made wrong conclusions. Im not gonna explain, it would only prolong the agony, im just gonna say im really sorry.

Yeah, it's not like they programmed the drums like Meshuggah on Catch-33. It's just a post-production technique to even out the sound, but nothing that Lopez didn't play ended up in the finished product.

As you said, much fuss over nothing - but no harm done. After all, much fuss over nothing is what the internet is for

 

[xDetonatorx]

Nah, I don't think so. In isolation one might think that Axe does have a problem with that, but in the light of how he nailed the rest of the catalog live, including more complex/difficult parts, with no problem, it's clearly that Axe prefers to play it that way.

It still irritates me - one of the aspects I loved of that part is that Lopez kept a steady hat over all the odd-timed stuff going on with the snare and double bass.

The thing that bothers me most about how axe plays that little flutter is how he seems to fumble on the kick about 25% of the time. I've seen Opeth 4 times in the last year, and I don't think I've heard him nail the outro yet, although he was having problems with his triggers at the last show, so it was hard to tell. I realize it's probably very difficult to play, but you'd think that with all the practice he gets on tour, he'd have it nailed down by now. Maybe I just caught him on a few bad nights.

 

[Cyrosis]

Yeah, it's not like they programmed the drums like Meshuggah on Catch-33. It's just a post-production technique to even out the sound, but nothing that Lopez didn't play ended up in the finished product.

As you said, much fuss over nothing - but no harm done. After all, much fuss over nothing is what the internet is for

I think drum triggers can do just as much for a drummer as auto tune can for a vocalist. I am not really concerned over their use from that perspective however, I just think they sound like shit. If I wanted to listen to something resembling a TR808 I'd probably buy an 80's pop compilation CD and play it back on shuffle.

 

[ProgresiveLanD]

can you Imagine Opeth doing a Zeuhl album ?? so rare

 

[truhlo]

Alas this thread still abounds with contradictions and undefined statements; i just gotta ask more questions, hoping to gain clear insight which would allow me to have opinion of my own. Please bear in mind im not trying to argue, i just want to learn and clarify...

I just think they sound like shit

Could you give a bit broader explanation, what is it that makes you feel so? Do you think drums on Deliverance sound like shit, at least sound-wise? Theyd be better off with whatever "real" sound?

although he was having problems with his triggers at the last show

That means Axe uses triggers live too?!?!? Can anyone tell this for sure?

You basically gotta ask yourself this. Does kollias bring the fucking thunder live? Yes, so who cares if he used triggers on record?

Well, its likely Kollias uses triggers live too... People keep saying live situation is where drummer can prove his stature, but if Kollias, Axe or any drummer for that matter uses triggers live, how can we know for sure? And, on the other hand, if triggering (as some people claim) only makes drums sound cleaner and even emphasizes mistakes, why would using triggers on records make us suspicious of drummer's "real" skills in the first place?

Furthermore, i wonder if there can be any agreement as to what triggered drums (lets say extremely well engineered triggered drums) do for a drummer: is it

just a post-production technique to even out the sound

or it deadens the dynamics and makes drums sound mechanic/artificial and rhythm-machine like, so that one could rightly say:

If I wanted to listen to something resembling a TR808 I'd probably buy an 80's pop compilation CD and play it back on shuffle.

Does triggering "even out" or "makes it sound like shit"? Or is it up to opinion? Or up to engineer's ears and fingers? Or up to drummer?