Does Opeth use auto-tune in recordings?

[Hedon-]

Basically we do 4-5 takes of every part and then pick the best one. The way we work with Jens has always been very musical, and that's the way I write too. If we can't play it we won't use it. To be honest I've never ever given up on a riff or a part because I or we haven't been able to perform it.

Same with autotuners, if I wouldn't be able to sing I'd be terribly uncomfortable with having a machine have me sounding like I could. We do many takes and pick the best ones. What Jens does later I don't really know, but I can easily hear a autotuned part I believe and I'm allergic to them. But with that said I'm sure we've used it here and there, especially to "tighten" together multi tracked harmonies if they're too chorus-y sounding.

Nowadays I don't track my vocals very often, like I did on say "Still life". Now we pick a single take of a single line so it'd better be good.

Recording albums these days is ridiciously time-consuming and the technical devices out there are mind boggling, but Opeth have always taken pride in being a band who actually can play and perform everything we put on tape. There's nothing fake about us, I can tell you that, but sometimes we dive into the new technology as everyone else.

Cheers
Mike

you cant pull off the awesome growl near the ending of blackwater park live and get it as good but its fine because satan cant either

 

[truhlo]

Mikael, could you explain your views on sound replacement and triggering as well? Do you see it as cool "new technology", or youve grown skeptical about it over the years? I would imagine that someone with more sensitive ears like yours could develop a sort of "allergic" reaction to badly triggered drums quite like the allergy you mention with overly autotuned vocals. Any thoughts on Deliverance drum production?

______

@DisappearingSun412

Man i must say i enjoyed reading and re-reading your last post. I so like the sense of the fine line you seem to have, which is getting increasingly rarer in this uncompromising world as it seems. I believe youll be a great engineer...

But even with dynamically applied 10 samples of the in-studio kit, i would say (merely in theory though) that drummers like Lopez "deserve better" than having anything replaced with the assumed 10 samples repeating over and over throughout the record. But i can also see a way in which it could be satisfying and close to original enough for a given recording situation.

In the end i guess unquestionable Opeth musicians' ability to really play everything you hear on records is the most important realization to be made about the band's sound and musicianship, but it is also the best possible argument for the band to be all natural and proudly so.

 

[SouthernTrendkill101]

I'm allergic to all modern technology

fuck autotuning and fuck those fake drumming programs.

Can't people just simply record their music naturally?

 

[DisappearingSun412]

But even with dynamically applied 10 samples of the in-studio kit, i would say (merely in theory though) that drummers like Lopez "deserve better" than having anything replaced with the assumed 10 samples repeating over and over throughout the record. But i can also see a way in which it could be satisfying and close to original enough for a given recording situation.

In the end i guess unquestionable Opeth musicians' ability to really play everything you hear on records is the most important realization to be made about the band's sound and musicianship, but it is also the best possible argument for the band to be all natural and proudly so.

I'm glad to have an intelligent (sometimes lol) forum to describe the current state in, and that consumers can understand the "learning engineer's" predicament.

I'm not done learning, I've got another few terms left (most all audio classes done though), and then a few YEARS of secondhand studio work and engineering before I get where I want to be. It's also cool because I'm a recording/live gear sales associate, so I get to play with the expensive toys all day. I've used and mastered more equipment than most millionaire producers. I'm hoping there's a future for me.

BACK TO YOUR QUOTE:
I rebuilt my home rig recently and I told my drummer, "dude I'm getting the new Drumagog platform, but you better not believe I'll even try it on you."
He says "That's ok man, everyone does it anyway. I kind of expected you to tell me this soon anyway."

I lost it. I said flat-out "You are the best drummer I know, or have had the pleasure of even jamming with. We've built this band over 5 years of work, and this record took us 2 and a half years to write. We pulled out every stop and made sure it was perfect. I am NOT going to cut and paste YEARS AND YEARS of teamwork and practice. It's fucking insulting to you, and to me."

This is one conversation I wish bands could have more often. It would promote hard work and organic chemistry.

Mikael's post confirms my thoughts on Opeth and the new digital engineering age. Opeth is too based on organic musical chemistry to use studio magic all over the fucking place. Shit, there's even proof. The times he uses the phrase "studio magic" he talks about the members nailing takes. Like Axe's freeform solo on Porcelain Heart.

Mike seems to me that he wishes Opeth were around in the 70's and 80's. There was no fucking studio magic then.

Just pure, organic cock rock.

 

[Lateralus14]

Opeth have always taken pride in being a band who actually can play and perform everything we put on tape.

Lies you can't play Moonlapse Vertigo

 

[Mikael Åkerfeldt]

Haha, true! "Moonlapse" never sounded right, not even on album. OK, that's the one exception. It should have been scrapped. Best time we've played it was the last time we played it, in Melbourne OZ with Axe I think.

I don't like the sound of triggered drums the way they're used in most death metal bands. It's too clicky sounding. I've no idea how we work with the drums other than that we spend a lot of time on it to make it great. Axe was the fastest drummer to record, he did everything on the last album in 5 or 6 days.

My opinion on studio trickery is that we won't use it to get good result quicker. We work for every single take, we work our asses off to be honest. Not even for my demos do I copy and paste a riff, I play all rounds the whole way through.

Most bands out there use the technology that's available.
It's nothing new, I mean the Beatles had a 4-track (later 2 4 -tracks) tape machine and console I believe. They could do an awful lot with that, but I'm sure they'd be using pro tools today. It's a matter of constructing this piece of art and make it sound the way you intended. Performing it live is a whole different matter. Opeth is both a recording band and a touring band so we need to cover both grounds. We're flexible both ways.

It's easy to become lazy when there's technology that can make it sound "better" with minimum effort. I never want Opeth to succumb to that whole thing.

Mike

 

[Brave.Archangel]

If we can't play it we won't use it. To be honest I've never ever given up on a riff or a part because I or we haven't been able to perform it.

Some of your shit off still life is extremely involved instrumentally... 3-4 guitars layered in the mix especially in the interludes (the moor, face of melinda etc) I know you pulled off FoM on the roundhouse tapes magnificently, but when i listen to that record in particular, there are some measures i find absolutely indecipherable. Are there some lines that just kinda have to get left out due to the fact that there are only two guitar players performing live, or am I just musically retarded and there are only indeed 2 guitars all throughout your records?

 

[L0bster]

I'm surprised so many ppl like the production on Ghost Reveries. To me the drums sound like samples all the way. They might be triggmixed, or even acoustic, but what is important is the results, and they sound 100% fake. Watershed however is a revenge production and mix-wise, much better all over sound.

 

[SouthernTrendkill101]

I actually thought Ghost Reveries' production was pretty well done. You're right about the drums though. I don't think they sound as good and "organic" as on Watershed. I'm almost 100% sure the drums on Watershed were all done without sampling.

 

[choppeth]

I love GR, man..
with that beautiful/intriguing
"reverie/harlequin forest"
and "the baying of the hounds"
sublime!

 

[truhlo]

I've no idea how we work with the drums other than that we spend a lot of time on it to make it great.

But you do know there was some sample replacement done on Deliverance by mixing engineer and that Bogren generally uses samples a lot?

In any case judging by your post you dont seem to be too persuasive about what happens in post production, and you feel dedicated approach that the band has is a warrant for great final result no matter what happens in post. Or you actually did know some triggering was to be done and you had specific requests about how it should sound?

I am NOT going to cut and paste YEARS AND YEARS of teamwork and practice. It's fucking insulting to you, and to me.

Excellent point, and to be perfectly honest, thats just how i feel about doing such things to any virtuoso drummer (when its straight-out replacement), its like an insult to his art.

Could you explain a bit more about "Axe's freeform solo on Porcelain Heart", and why do you mention it in the context of "studio magic". Im very interested in that.

I'm almost 100% sure the drums on Watershed were all done without sampling.

I too relish the drum sound on Watershed, i think its great. According to quote from Bogren posted here he did use some sampling ("not much though"), but its definitely natural sounding, and besides performance is just amazing. GR snare sounds very digital to me too, but according to the other Bogren's post it could be due to amp that he used... dunno.

 

[NicholasDWolfwood]

I'm almost 100% sure the drums on Watershed were all done without sampling.

I beg to differ, as Bogren himself had said "I always use a lot of parallell compression, and a little support triggering on kick and snare (not much on that album though)."

Which means although it may not be a lot, or only in certain parts - triggers were used on the kick and snare.

 

[Alteredmindeath]

Haha, true! "Moonlapse" never sounded right, not even on album. OK, that's the one exception. It should have been scrapped. Best time we've played it was the last time we played it, in Melbourne OZ with Axe I think.

I don't like the sound of triggered drums the way they're used in most death metal bands. It's too clicky sounding. I've no idea how we work with the drums other than that we spend a lot of time on it to make it great. Axe was the fastest drummer to record, he did everything on the last album in 5 or 6 days.

My opinion on studio trickery is that we won't use it to get good result quicker. We work for every single take, we work our asses off to be honest. Not even for my demos do I copy and paste a riff, I play all rounds the whole way through.

Most bands out there use the technology that's available.
It's nothing new, I mean the Beatles had a 4-track (later 2 4 -tracks) tape machine and console I believe. They could do an awful lot with that, but I'm sure they'd be using pro tools today. It's a matter of constructing this piece of art and make it sound the way you intended. Performing it live is a whole different matter. Opeth is both a recording band and a touring band so we need to cover both grounds. We're flexible both ways.

It's easy to become lazy when there's technology that can make it sound "better" with minimum effort. I never want Opeth to succumb to that whole thing.

Mike

Yeah I agree. I think triggers should only be used live and not on the album, keeps it more natural sounding. Interesting to know you play all rounds the whole way through on your demos, that is where some get lazy. Must not let the songwriting get lazy, don't listen to the Roadrunner executives and let technology make things robotic sounding. I think it would be cool to write a piece that was unplayable live, if it sounds cool enough like Moonlapse it can still be played with a will, there's a way. Good luck on writing the next record/s.

 

[Caesar Metallius]

Friend of mine knows how to tune vocals really well, and you cannot tell.


People think of Cher and T-Pain and think it is all slap-stick to the note, I am under the impression you have absolutely no idea of what the program is NOR how it is used. The "easy to tell when it is used" is bullshit, unless it is a blatant use of the program for effect, like in pop music, but to tune Mikaels vocals, it would have to be subtle changes to pitch that are impossible to detect.

If it's such a subtle change to the pitch that is "impossible" to detect, davo, WHY THE FUCK DO YOU USE IT!?!?!!?!?! Either it indeed has a significant effect, ie. making up for an artist's short-comings, or it's so subtle that one must strain to hear any difference at all between the original and synthetic versions. You condradict yourself.

 

[Mikael Åkerfeldt]

I think Jens has used sampled hits from Axe to back up some stuff, like if there's a weaker hit on say the snare in a otherwise perfect segment, but I'm not sure. All I know is that the takes we got on Watershed from Axe was simply amazing. Best drummer I've ever worked with and recorded. No offense to any drummers I've played with. Axe's simply the best.

As for the freakout solo in "Porcelain heart" we just did maybe 20-30 takes. I lost the sense timing and rhythm (too complicated) since Axe is playing all over the place, and couldn't foresee when the part should end. Somehow Axe perfectly understood the "beat" and nailed it a number of times, but it wasn't crazy enough until we got what's on the album. It was basically standing ovations in the mixing room once we got that down. Fucking tricky shit, not studio trickery!

I think we've used triggers on all previous records apart from "Damnation" which is Lopez best performance if you ask me. On "Morningrise" we used a sampled snare hit which to my ears sounded shit, I always wanted a snare that sounded like on King Diamond "Them"...love that sound still! And the trigger system in those days sounded horrible. "Deliverance" was such a horrible CD to record and everything about those days is something I'd rather forget. You wouldn't believe that shit so let's leave it.

We basically use the advanced technology as a back up help, never as a mean to save a shitty musicianship.
The lineup we have no is no bunch of losers when it comes to the individual musicianship, I can tell you that.

Mike

 

[Antyman]

aoh lord! King Diamond snares and Metallica (Justice) Bass drums..

I don't think a band should copy+paste, It sucks when you listen to an awesome guitarriff and then figure out "oh crap, they have only played this once and then copied it", it's great when you can hear it differs a bit.

 

[lammoth]

The lineup we have no is no bunch of losers when it comes to the individual musicianship, I can tell you that.

Mike

you da man! no one disagrees on this forum atleast, if you do then GO FUCK YOURSELF!

btw anyone heard Amon Amarth - Cry of the Blackbirds, something about the drum rolls on the toms on that album which sound very programmed for some reason, anyone can shed light on this?

 

[Cyrosis]

btw anyone heard Amon Amarth - Cry of the Blackbirds, something about the drum rolls on the toms on that album which sound very programmed for some reason, anyone can shed light on this?

I'm sure it's just triggering, doesn't sound like anything different to me based on the video I'm listening to right now.

 

[Hedon-]

you da man! no one disagrees on this forum atleast, if you do then GO FUCK YOURSELF!

 

[truhlo]

Im quite surprised to hear that triggers were probably used on all Opeth records. I can only imagine how underdeveloped technology was in Morningrise era! In any case, theres triggering and triggering; it can be badly misused or nicely done to produce an effect. I like "support-triggering" phrase, i think it should be put in opposition to complete replacement. And when it comes to Opeth i guess the bottom line is:

We basically use the advanced technology as a back up help, never as a mean to save a shitty musicianship.

As for Deliverance i see i better not mention it any more, and sound replacement of the kick is not the only thing the band seems to be unhappy with when it comes to that record Regardless, i think its worth noting that, no matter how discontent Mike himself might be about recording and production of albums like Morningrise or Deliverance, theres no doubt some of the band's most brilliant songwriting moments are on these records. Thats what really counts imo.

I thought drum solo on Porcelain heart was sublime but i had no idea it was actually that tricky. I wonder if that means its not likely PH will ever be played live... Im glad to hear how high Mike's regards for Axe are; its definitely hard to imagine more difficult position for a drummer than coming as a replacement for someone as beloved as Lopez. But Axe definitely persuaded everyone (everyone sane). Yet, Lopez used to bring that Latin jazzy touch, lol, just kidding