downloading... your opinion?

elric

crunchy frog
Oct 16, 2001
208
0
16
u.s.a.
Hey folks... well, so i've got a bit of a question for you - what do you think of downloading music? Do you download singles, whole albums, bootlegs, prerelease leaked cds, nothing at all? I'm writing a paper on the question for a popular culture class I'm taking, and thought that having some other people's opinions might be good. So, let me know what you think. Particularly, I'm interested in your feelings about downloading music within this community - I'm pretty sure most of you don't give a shit about downloading the latest hot songs on the radio. I'm really wondering how you feel about downloading more 'underground' things. Do you download them? If so, do you usually buy things that you like? How do you justify downloading music? Alternatively, if you don't download music, why not? Why do you think it shouldn't be done? I'd like as many opinions as possible, so make my life easier and give me a good answer :D Then, my paper will practically write itself! :)

-- Ross
 
Downloading a few songs to check out a band - sure, I see nothing wrong with trying something out before you go out and spend your money on it by getting a little taste of what it's like. Who can deny you that? You don't get much in the way of metal on the radio, so there's not many other methods.

Downloading a bootleg - I don't really have an opinion on this I suppose.... I'm not bothered either way. I think it's cool for a fan to be able to get hold of such recordings, but if the band in question don't want it done then it's their show and their decision.

Downloading full albums - Nah, I don't like this. If you like a band/album enough to spend time downloading it, then buy the damn thing. Some people complain about lack of money... well, you know, if I can't afford a new car I can't get a new car. Live with it! Downloading albums that are leaked before release is worse still. If you like and truly respect a band then you should understand the only reason it's available for download is because someone has put it there illegally, and it should be left. In any case, if you really like a band, you don't want to hear their new album in crap quality MP3 format first. If you pre-order the album before you download it though, then I don't suppose there's anything wrong with downloading it, but I do think the person is cheating themself a bit by not waiting for the full package and hearing the album as it was meant to be heard.

I guess it's also ok to download albums if they are out of print and impossible to find elsewhere. In which case it's your only chance and I can understand downloading it.

And singles.... usually the main song is already on the CD, but the other songs still have the same principle behind them as any song on the album.
 
hehe, well I'm pretty sure people here know my opinion ;) :D (and are probably sick of hearing it);)

I'll make a more coherant answer tomorrow or sometime, but incase I don't get around to it ;) here's some recent posts I made on the subject. The subject is more slanted towards the issue of people downloading leaks and then talking about them on the bands official forum, but it conatins the general ideas behind my view.

http://www.ultimatemetal.com/forum/showpost.php?postid=1326925&postcount=2
http://www.ultimatemetal.com/forum/showpost.php?postid=1350220&postcount=17
http://www.ultimatemetal.com/forum/showpost.php?postid=1350220&postcount=17
http://www.ultimatemetal.com/forum/showpost.php?postid=1352926&postcount=28
http://www.ultimatemetal.com/forum/showpost.php?postid=1353114&postcount=32

Anyway, like I said, I'll make a more solid post on it (and there's something you mentioned I'd like to address, I just don't have time now)
 
I download songs/samples from band sites, record company sites and mp3.com just to check out new bands and releases. If I like it, then I go to record store and buy that album. If I don't like, then at least I know what kind music that particular band plays.

I can't remember ever having downloaded a full album. Full demos yes. But I might download full album if it was available at bands official homesite. In that case I will still buy the album if I like it.

I don't download leaked cds. I know Viva Emptiness is available as mp3s, but I don't want to download it. I prefer having having booklet in my hand and reading lyrics when I listen the whole album for the first time.

Downloading from community is not a bad thing. I've downloaded few songs from Napster and Kazaa Lite. At the moment I have Kazaa Lite on my computer. The songs I download from there are usually songs that can't easily be found on cd. For example I've downloaded rare Katatonia songs, Love of Swan, Scarlet Heavens etc, from Kazaa. I'd of course like to have the records that those songs are on, but haven't been able to find them for reasonable price. So thanks to Kazaa, I can at least listen to those songs.

--Tero
 
before d/l i used to buy so many cds and return a lot of them, buying because of good reviews, but not actualy knowing what the band sound like. (i got Tonight's Decision without knowing what they sound like, and loved it from the start). anywho d/l one or two songs makes it a lot easier, i listen, if i like i buy, if not then i've saved some time.
i've d/l Discouraged ones, which is out of print in the Uk, and not at the time being 18 i couldnt buy it from the net. anyway as soon as i got my credit card i bought it. i d/l demos which are impossible to find, and in most cases were tapes converted to mp3 or done on cd-r in the first place. and i've got some rare songs that are also impossible to find.
one thing that i think should really change though is the price of cds. either that or i should get a pay raise. they're too exspensive, they're a couple of pounds cheaper in the US, and i know in smaller countries they're a lot more. but it would be great to go into HMV and see most cd's cost £9.99
 
Haha. In HMV the other day, Metallica - S&M on dvd was £17.99, on CD it was £19.99. Most record companies have been found out and admitted to price fixing and yet the prices still stay high.

Most of my spare money goes into clothes - band merch of course. I'd much rather have clothes on my back than the higher quality of a CD over MP3s. The turning point that makes me go buy a CD however is the art. There's nothing like a shiney case, thick booklet and beautiful cover art. It shows that the band has really put something into the CD.

I know downloading MP3s is wrong but I can't help it. Bootlegs and out of production stuff I see nothing wrong with. Pre-releases are nice but definitely don't go talk about it on the official band site. If at the time you do have the money to preorder the album then I totally understand the waiting. On the issue of normal currently available albums I think there's just too many of them that are too expensive for everyone to afford. Remember younger fans such as myself (also probably the fans with the least money) have to buy all the albums form the last two decades or so to catch up. That's a lot of albums going at about £13 average to buy. Others would simply say that you don't need what you can't afford but I would reply with how do I truly appreciate a band from only one album?

For cheap CDs (compared to the high street shops such as HMV and Virgin) I would recomend Amazon and basically any local independant shop in your area. Just because the shop looks tatty doesn't mean the music inside is.
 
I don't agree with downloading full albums at all. It hurts the band and they're the ones putting all of their time into it. I make decent money at what I do and can afford to buy more CDs than some on here. That doesn't mean I buy every CD I want, though. If I have to wait to get some stuff, then I do rather than cheat the band. There's a shitload of good stuff out there and it's hard to wait for some of it but sometimes you have to suck it up, save your money, and buy the ones that are most important to you.
 
I know russian, polish, bulgarian, serbian servers that are full with full albums, inc. all Katatonia stuff albums, sinlges, bootlegs. Seems in these countries people do't buy CD's at all...
In these countries, including Turkey which is my home country, it is very hard to buy albums. An album costs like half of my monthly expenses(including eating, clothing, travel to the school and back). An average person in Turkey earns like 200$ a month and still has a family to feed. Considering that the albums cost 15 bucks you can't expect from him to buy the album.

I don't agree with Moonshield about the new car thing. Metal music is underground and the people who don't have enough money to buy the albums deserve to listen to it even more than some kids from rich families. If the bands don't think so, I won't bother listening to them. Music should be about reaching the masses, not ripping them of. I know most of these underground bands also are in a very bad financial situation, but the small amount of money coming from the third world countries wont make them rich. They have to accept that fact and just be happy that they have fans from all around the world.
 
I'm a music junkie, but I can't buy every single record that interests me. Also, there's so much stuff out there that is OK, but not groundbreaking. I personally don't have a problem with downloading mediocre albums because I already spend a fortune on quality music, and I will always buy my favourite artist's CDs. You have to set priorities.

Lots of people suggest that it's OK to download tracks, but not full albums. I mean, does it matter if I got four tracks or the whole album when I'm not gonna buy the record anyway?!? Again, if I'm really enthousiastic about an album I will buy it. But if the album is not *that* great and I have the choices "CD-R" or "no music at all", I will readily choose the former. My two cents.
 
I confess: I download full albums, because I dont have another chance to listen to this kind of music.
 
I hate it when people copy/ download loads of stuff and hardly ever buy original albums anymore. I downloaded the new Cradle Of Filth disc and Opeth's "Damnation" and I downloaded more albums in the past (not more than 10 though...), but when it's out, I ALWAYS go out and buy the original album, just because a mere CD-R just doesn't do it for me! I need the packaging, booklet etc. I like to know when and where an album was recorded etc. and seeing the cover, going through the booklet, reading the lyrics etc. enhances your experience of the album.

Bad economical situation makes it understandable that people download stuff, but it's no 100% justification.

So in short, downloading is OK for curiosity and to serve as "taster", but downloading entire artist discographies with no intention of buying is just wrong, period.

NP: OPETH - Morningrise (original CD :))
 
I download everything, demos, e.p.'s, out of print materials, bootlegs and full albums. I justify this by listening to the album first and seeing If I like it enough to buy it, If I do, than I will buy it. If I don't I will either delete it or burn it to a cd and listen to it maybe once or a couple times (if that) over the next year. Cd's are very expensive and If at this moment, I couldn't afford it, I would buy every cd from every band I like but I am a college student, trying to fend for myself. Like i said i have a ton of cd's burned in my spindles, and will never listen to all of them and there's no possible way right now I could afford to buy a fraction of them. The bands I love, I reward.
 
I also am one to admit downloading the new album, because I can. Moral belief aside, I want to hear the songs.

But a few interesting things for your paper:

1. CD's these days are overpriced (katatonia is a bit different see below). I download the odd songs to listen to at night then delete them usually, If I really like stuff I will probably buy the album, but when it hits the £17 mark I laugh, If the musicians have done so much to get where they are why the hell don't they try or express more that they are trying to do things. This industry is poor, and if I ever make it to a point where I am making money I will do everything I can to change the situation, even if it costs me my career. For me to justify this is easy, I believe in what I do.

2. Katatonia's new album will be around £12, I will buy that, even after hearing the songs. But I just can't wait you see.......

3. Advertising. A band that takes it's songs of Kazaa will loose an incredible port of advertising. I use kazaa more to hear unheard bands than download albums. If it wasn't for Kazaa I wouldn't have listened to half the stuff.

4. Music isn't money, production is. Writing a song should not be done for money, however the process of recording it and producing it professionally costs money. It's an art and musicians need money, however after a while it seems likes some bands give up and go for the money. hmm.. not my best point but it is always at the back of your mind..

5. If these companies feel it's such a threat why are they trying to fight an unstopable problem. They need to offer the consumer more.

6. Many peoples morals are altered by these companies attitude, the more they go against Kazaa and others the more the consumer sees music as a "Product" rarther than a piece of art, since it is the companies causing this infection theyt only have themselves to blame. They don't work with us, they work us to them and their ideas.


Hopefully that should spark a few paragraphs.
 
An article posted elsewhere on UM :) These are not necessarily my views, I just saw it earlier and thought you'd appreciate it on this thread :)

September 24, 2002
One Buck Forty or Die

By John C. Dvorak

It's rampant. The new P2P systems, such as KaZaA and Morpheus, have picked up where Napster left off, and blank CDs now outsell prerecorded discs. The trend is clear: concern not for the law but for economics. This happens with disruptive technologies. If you had a machine that could make a new Lexus for $1,000, then why would you buy one from Toyota for $50,000? Because you had a moral obligation? You'd wonder why Toyota wouldn't use the same machine to make the car for $1,000. Where is the morality in keeping the price jacked up? Likewise, too many people are asking why they should buy a CD for $16 when they can copy one for 35 cents. We are a mercantile culture, and this is a pure cost/benefits analysis. It has nothing to do with laws. There are laws against public kissing in many cities, too. Who cares? It's about economics, plain and simple. History. Edison invented the cylinder phonograph in 1877, and he commercialized it as the Edison Phonograph in 1887. Curiously, the gramophone disc was invented by Emile Berliner the same year. In 1913, even Edison turned to the disc format. (The cylinder machine evolved into the Ediphone, a dictation device that remained popular for years.) The history of the music business is marked by such changes and dislocations.

The heyday of the 78-rpm disc was probably the 1930s, partly because of the emergence of electric recording using microphones in the mid-1920s, along with the popularity of the jukebox, which took over where the coin-operated player piano left off. It was a pay-for-play period. But over time, battles over performance rights, permissions to play discs over the radio, and musician labor strikes caused a slow evolution in the business. After World War II, this culminated in a format change, as Columbia introduced the 33 1/3 -rpm LP and RCA rolled out the 45-rpm single and EP. The format wars continued until the mid-1950s, when the 33 1/3- and 45-rpm formats became standard. Soon stereo sound was introduced. Pay for play began to die in the mid-sixties.
All the new technology had very little to do with music itself. It was about the business of distribution—the more distribution the better. Recorded music became a money machine, and by 1970 the market was flooded with music—most of it crummy. Soon the business became known as the "music industry." Factory-like. Soulless. Unsympathetic. Exploitive.
Price fixing. The music industry began to act like a monopolist. With the advent of the CD, it found that it could continue to gouge its customers. While the industry lectures the public on illegal copying, it gets busted for price fixing. So much for the morality argument.
When Edison first released his prerecorded cylinders, they sold for $4 each. With mass production, he eventually brought the price down to 35 cents, nearly a 90 percent reduction. If the same ratio held true with $16 CDs, the cost of which has been perpetually propped up by price fixing, they would cost $1.40. Since it costs less than 25 cents to mass-produce a CD, $1.40 is reasonable and profitable.
Of course, the industry would need to adjust from extravagance and sloppiness to frugality and normality. Less Dom Perignon, for starters. And it's not as if record companies and artists won't make money. 45-rpm singles used to cost 50 cents each, and it was a big deal to sell a million of them. Elvis Presley led a good life, it seems to me, by leveraging his career with those old profit margins. Heck, he was giving away Cadillacs.
It's a matter of competition. A manufactured CD for $1.40 can compete with a bootleg copy: Manufactured CDs generally play better and come with nice packages and liner notes. The industry can still make millions of dollars, just not billions. And many artists can go back to making money the old-fashioned way—by working harder and performing more. Things change, folks! The gravy train has left the station.
The U.S. government should not be corrupted by the Recording Industry Association of America and should instead do more about price fixing. And let's stop lecturing people about legality and morality. Students in particular are not moral reprobates, nor are they fools. They are pragmatists, and they stretch the rules along with their budgets. This is a crowd that worships the fake ID and is taught to question authority. So you're going to lecture them about copyrights? Give up. Rethink your business model. The problem will be solved.
 
commandante said:
I don't agree with Moonshield about the new car thing. Metal music is underground and the people who don't have enough money to buy the albums deserve to listen to it even more than some kids from rich families. If the bands don't think so, I won't bother listening to them. Music should be about reaching the masses, not ripping them of. I know most of these underground bands also are in a very bad financial situation, but the small amount of money coming from the third world countries wont make them rich.

Nah man, I'm sorry but I really think that's the totally wrong attitude. Obviously you're going to disagree and obviously there's absolutely no point in me even replying, but I feel like it anyway. People who can't afford albums deserve to hear them more than people who can afford them?! I really have no idea where you dug that statement up from, but ... I dunno, if you can read it again and not see how much crap it is, then I dunno what's wrong. Everyone has the same right to listen to an album. But when it comes down to it, it costs the band and the label money to make that album. Sure, they do it for the love of music not for the money - I doubt Lord Belial are millionaires - but if you want to hear the album, you buy it. Obviously, due to MP3 technology, you can now try an album before you buy more easily than before, but people are just taking advantage of that. Just because metal's underground doesn't mean the bands don't deserve to make ANY money off their music. Surely they deserve something? In fact, many people on here, I expect, would say they deserve more money than someone like Britney Spears makes. By not buying an album and just downloading it, you're just ripping them off. You might think your $12 (or whatever price, I'm open to variation) won't make a lot of difference, but there are quite a lot of people out there thinking like that. And that's quite a lot of $12s, which is quite a lot of money. So I stick with what I said: if you can't afford an album, then you just can't have it! Obviously my car analogy was a bit extreme, but it's the same with anything. I dunno, if you can't afford new shoes or something, you can't have 'em! Music's the same. It doesn't grow on trees. I guess Dr. Martens' are just lucky you can't download shoes. I know I'm just rambling now, and I guess I've made my point, so I'll shut up. If you want to argue any of these points then go ahead, but bear in mind that trying to change my opinion is just as pointless as this post is.
 
you are right. we are just trying to make our points here. it's not like that somebody will change his opinion and say alright I will buy albums from now on...
 
downloading is a good way to be able to distingue whether you will buy a CD or not. since we are in the katatonia-forum, i can already say now that i am not going to buy the latest release since it quite disappoints me but of course i will be listening to the new mp3s once a while.
furthermore if katatonia played in my country on the upcoming tour I'd be definitely checking out the show.
so this is another way in supporting a band, even if i don't have all their releases...