Election day thread

[Srontgorrth]

That's right, bend over and take it bitch.

Also, I didn't vote, but I waited around too long to get an absentee ballot. So it's my own fault.

But as for the arguments criticizing those who don't vote, I can't stand them. It is someone's right, as a citizen, to vote; thus, it's their right to choose not to. It is not one's duty to vote.

But it's more than someone's right, in fact, it is their duty, have you ever heard of civic duty? Or the social contract? Our constitution was influenced by that a fair bit. It IS one's duty to vote, doing otherwise is irresponsible.

 

[Einherjar86]

I've also heard of "civil disobedience." Not voting can be a form of voting all the same if everyone chooses to abstain from it.

 

[Dak]

But it's more than someone's right, in fact, it is their duty, have you ever heard of civic duty? Or the social contract? Our constitution was influenced by that a fair bit. It IS one's duty to vote, doing otherwise is irresponsible.

I disagree. It is irresponsible to vote for shit candidates. Two shitty choices does not constitute true "choice", and I am not obligated to hold my nose and select shit A or shit B.

 

[Srontgorrth]

I've also heard of "civil disobedience." Not voting can be a form of voting all the same if everyone chooses to abstain from it.

Civil disobedience is generally used to make a point of some sort - what sort of point or stand would not voting make? One of carelessness? Sounds more like civil ignorance to me.

I disagree. It is irresponsible to vote for shit candidates. Two shitty choices does not constitute true "choice", and I am not obligated to hold my nose and select shit A or shit B.

True "choice" regardless, do you really think every single candidate on the ballot is that terrible? Even if you don't stick with democrats or republicans, there are still independents, greens, libertarians and so on, and even "none of the above." One is still better than the other, and furthermore, the two candidates likely to get a seat/position will still make very different decisions, and you most likely lead towards one or the other.

 

[Dak]

Civil disobedience is generally used to make a point of some sort - what sort of point or stand would not voting make? One of carelessness? Sounds more like civil ignorance to me.




True "choice" regardless, do you really think every single candidate on the ballot is that terrible? Even if you don't stick with democrats or republicans, there are still independents, greens, libertarians and so on, and even "none of the above." One is still better than the other, and furthermore, the two candidates likely to get a seat/position will still make very different decisions, and you most likely lead towards one or the other.

If they are members of the Republican or Democratic party they are equally bad, since they will push the party agenda, of which both are bad.

Most independents run on "progressive" platforms (if they can even ge ton the ballot), and most 3rd parties lean heavily to insane fringe views (like the Green party).

For me, that leaves the Constitution and Libertarian parties as the only possible presenter of possibly agreeable candidates, and finding them on the ballot is next to impossible.

 

[Einherjar86]

Civil disobedience is generally used to make a point of some sort - what sort of point or stand would not voting make? One of carelessness? Sounds more like civil ignorance to me.

I disagree, without getting nasty about it. It's a fact that the voting process supports a "party-driven" system. Candidates conform to a certain set of priorities because of party pressures. Voting does nothing to change or progress this restrictive institution. You cannot possibly vote for an "individual"; you have to vote for a strict set of ideological beliefs, embodied by a candidate. This creates rigid divisions in party politics, and totally lumps all those who subscribe to a particular party into a homogenous mire. They identify with a party, and in doing so lose any unique form of identity. Voting does little, because in the end all you're voting for is a "party."

 

[Pessimism]

You know, you can always take the time to still vote on initiatives/other ballot measures while purposely leaving elected positions blank.

 

[Einherjar86]

It doesn't effect much when you're impeded by a majority of people who vote down party lines.

 

[Dak]

Voting in America:

Select (R) or (D).


WOWOW CHOICE AND FREEDUm!!!!

 

[zabu of nΩd]

You know, you can always take the time to still vote on initiatives/other ballot measures while purposely leaving elected positions blank.

This.

Also, for Richard and everyone else who shares his attitude, there are more options than just Republicans and Democrats for fuck's sake. If other candidates aren't on the ballot in your locality, it's probably your fault for not having signed their petitions and encouraged others to do the same.

I'm not saying I am any more diligent about this than the rest of you, but I'm also not in denial that supporting minor/independent candidates is better than doing fucking nothing. The two-party duopoly on politics is not going to go away if people don't start giving a shit.

 

[Pessimism]

Your comment doesn't really make much sense in regards to what I am implying. When you vote, individuals have party affiliations listed next to their name (unless they are applying for non-partisan positions). Ballots/propositions however do not have such listings. So for the general partisan idiot who is uneducated in any of the proposed measures cannot just "vote" for what his party wishes (especially given the deceptive language or additional provisions that may ideologically conflict).

Example: Ballot measure 23 in California was not a republican or democratic proposition, but a lobbyist one. Granted there were Republicans, Democrats, Libertarians, et al. that thought this ballot was a good idea, but there were also members of those same parties that thought the initiative was terrible. Ballot measures in many instances have no black and white partisan aspects. Voting on issues such as these can (and do) transgress party divides for many people.

What I am literally saying is that you can (and should) take the time to learn about ballot measures, since they immediately affect your area/state and how all parties can act within the confines of the law. If you don't like how the parties are acting, then actively vote on measures that take power away from said parties to do as they wish (California proposition 20*). If you cannot find any initiatives on the ballot, perhaps you should actually try writing a ballot measure or fixing the government in other ways (the antithesis of bitching about it online and doing nothing like most people on the internet**). And if you are so against voting for one of the two major douchebag parties in office, you could go in, vote on the appropriate measures you believe in, and leave the rest blank.



*Prop 20: a redistricting commission composed of democrats, republicans, and various independent parties. Granted it has a higher percentage of D's/R's than the other affiliations, but a first step is better than no steps.

** I am literally referring to most people on the internet, if anyone here wants to take this as an attack on them... well, they can think what they want (factually though: they're wrong).

 

[Dak]

When you are married with kids and work to support them, unfortunately there isn't time to fight for grand design change. Ironically, the people who have nothing to do are the ones who are happy with the system the way it is because it rewards laziness.

 

[zabu of nΩd]

Your comment doesn't really make much sense in regards to what I am implying. When you vote, individuals have party affiliations listed next to their name (unless they are applying for non-partisan positions). Ballots/propositions however do not have such listings. So for the general partisan idiot who is uneducated in any of the proposed measures cannot just "vote" for what his party wishes (especially given the deceptive language or additional provisions that may ideologically conflict).

I wasn't trying to tie your comment in with mine, sorry if I gave that impression. I just wanted to give it a nod since it also illustrates that there's more to an election than "R VS D LOLZ".

When you are married with kids and work to support them, unfortunately there isn't time to fight for grand design change.

I understand that, but since you happen to be on a forum fairly often talking politics with people you might as well at the very least deliver a more encouraging message to those who aren't tied down by work and family, rather than just propagating an unnecessary attitude of hopelessness.

 

[Krow]

Glad to see Manchin won in wv... the guy he was running against, John Raese's entire campaign was I wont agree with Obama. The bad thing is, he still managed to win 43% of the vote... and quite frankly, I believe alot of that is because wv is still racist as fuck.

 

[Pessimism]

I wasn't trying to tie your comment in with mine, sorry if I gave that impression. I just wanted to give it a nod since it also illustrates that there's more to an election than "R VS D LOLZ".

I was actually responding to the comments before you; sorry I didn't quote

When you are married with kids and work to support them, unfortunately there isn't time to fight for grand design change. Ironically, the people who have nothing to do are the ones who are happy with the system the way it is because it rewards laziness.

I politely disagree with you in this regard. There are many jobs that can take just as much work as a family (and in some cases more). I'm a full time dual major academic who was also employed (until 2 months ago) - that didn't stop me from creating a non-profit organization that has no upkeep (sans for server costs) system that allows educational donations to be either generally applied to a fund that can either be donated to a myriad of schools on a national level or a specific school on a county level.

The fact we all have time to argue on a god damned metal forum about this shows just how much free time we have. I think your reply is an excuse in this sense Dakryn.

 

[Saparmurat_Niyazov]

Voter registration laws and ballot access for propositions and 3rd party candidates are a big turn off for me. I feel quite comfortable with my choice of not voting, and I'll be damned if someone is going to tell me I'm being irresponsible for exercising my right to not participate in a political system that I feel is a sham.

 

[Dak]

I was actually responding to the comments before you; sorry I didn't quote





I politely disagree with you in this regard. There are many jobs that can take just as much work as a family (and in some cases more). I'm a full time dual major academic who was also employed (until 2 months ago) - that didn't stop me from creating a non-profit organization that has no upkeep (sans for server costs) system that allows educational donations to be either generally applied to a fund that can either be donated to a myriad of schools on a national level or a specific school on a county level.

The fact we all have time to argue on a god damned metal forum about this shows just how much free time we have. I think your reply is an excuse in this sense Dakryn.

So you created a website (whoa, such a time taxer there) that funnels money into an existing (albeit defunct) educational system and this somehow equals the effort it would take to go door to door and change peoples acceptance of an existing system and one that has been in place as long as they or their living relatives can remember and instead embrace an entirely new system and thought process? Pretty weak arguement. Also, my posting has tailed off dramatically since starting working. I was unemployed for 2010 up until a few weeks ago, and my absence was noticed at least by krampus in a seperate thread.

It also takes me about 2-5 minutes to read and post, hardly a huge time taxation.

 

[skeptik]

I think the suggestion that the act of not voting in itself is somehow hideously irresponsible and neglectful is a bunch of nescient, idealistic nonsense that is not reflective of reality. People shouldn't be compelled to make excuses for not voting so that it will be more difficult for pretentious people to make them feel guilty about not fulfilling their imaginary duties. It is considerably more irresponsible to vote out of ignorance than it is to refrain from voting. Anybody who feels as though they're not particularly well informed should refrain from voting. And frankly, I find it difficult to fault people who have become so disenchanted with the political arena that they express apathy toward it, including simply avoiding it. The more I've delved into politics and political ideologies and political campaigning and maneuvering, the less I've wanted to continue, and I imagine there are many other examples like this. I have a slight bit of admiration for those who continue to believe that they are actually empowered with the ability to enact real, meaningful, tangible change or that their one individual vote means much at all in and of itself, but I've grown weary of those who take it beyond themselves and attempt to obligate others to "get involved" by suggesting that if they don't actively participate, then that means that they have no real knowledge and therefore they are in no position to complain or critique or analyze political issues.

 

[Dak]

It's kind of like saying that we can't complain about officiating in the NFL because we didn't hire the officials.

 

[Pessimism]

So you created a website (whoa, such a time taxer there) that funnels money into an existing (albeit defunct) educational system and this somehow equals the effort it would take to go door to door and change peoples acceptance of an existing system and one that has been in place as long as they or their living relatives can remember and instead embrace an entirely new system and thought process? Pretty weak arguement. Also, my posting has tailed off dramatically since starting working. I was unemployed for 2010 up until a few weeks ago, and my absence was noticed at least by krampus in a seperate thread.

It also takes me about 2-5 minutes to read and post, hardly a huge time taxation.

Yes, expediting the entire non-profit process of collecting funds while simultaneously destroying overhead is such a bullshit thing to invest one's time in.

Next time you want to rail on someone for trying to fix a defunct system, you should pull your head out of your ass before you do so. Also, massive changes are not instantaneous, and any help that puts us as a collective whole in the general "right" (a.k.a. humanitarian for myself) direction is a step in the correct direction.

Perhaps I don't have the resources myself to completely radically overhaul an education system that deals with a nation that has a population of 300+ million people; but at least I can try and do my part by attempting to fix the parts of the system that needs it, especially in a country where the first thing to be cut is the education budget.