Election day thread

[Dak]

Why fix/improve a system that is flawed in it's basic concepts to begin with? Of course, this is obviously where you and I differ entirely in our opinion so this cannot possibly end except in agree to disagree or name calling.

 

[Pessimism]

I think the suggestion that the act of not voting in itself is somehow hideously irresponsible and neglectful is a bunch of nescient, idealistic nonsense that is not reflective of reality. People shouldn't be compelled to make excuses for not voting so that it will be more difficult for pretentious people to make them feel guilty about not fulfilling their imaginary duties. It is considerably more irresponsible to vote out of ignorance than it is to refrain from voting. Anybody who feels as though they're not particularly well informed should refrain from voting. And frankly, I find it difficult to fault people who have become so disenchanted with the political arena that they express apathy toward it, including simply avoiding it. The more I've delved into politics and political ideologies and political campaigning and maneuvering, the less I've wanted to continue, and I imagine there are many other examples like this. I have a slight bit of admiration for those who continue to believe that they are actually empowered with the ability to enact real, meaningful, tangible change or that their one individual vote means much at all in and of itself, but I've grown weary of those who take it beyond themselves and attempt to obligate others to "get involved" by suggesting that if they don't actively participate, then that means that they have no real knowledge and therefore they are in no position to complain or critique or analyze political issues.

I invest a great deal of time researching politicians, their positions, and measures that are on the ballot in my state (and when applicable - nation). When I am ignorant on a position, I don't vote on it. It's as simple as that. I do think however that people do not have the right to complain about anything that they have not researched/voted on when it comes to government. For a government to "work" (however you want to define that parameter) you need a populace that is willing to educate itself on the matters.

 

[Pessimism]

Why fix/improve a system that is flawed in it's basic concepts to begin with? Of course, this is obviously where you and I differ entirely in our opinion so this cannot possibly end except in agree to disagree or name calling.

Depends on what we are really discussing here. The system I have experienced (the system based on passing test scores which is also temporally inefficient) is incredibly flawed (I AGREE WITH THIS!)
A fix is obviously necessary, but the question is: is it possible? We must remember, conceivability and possibility are not synonymous - can we really create a system that can successfully handle our large population?

It is another thing to work toward getting rid of the bloated bureaucracy that exists within a said system to hopefully make an impact on how money is spent. And frankly, creating a tax-exempt donation system which gives a tax break to the donor (who also has the power to specify what his/her money can be used for), is not a bad thing.

 

[Kara-Shehr]

I didn't vote because I was too busy posting in Metal forums. Maby next year though, oh well.......

 

[skeptik]

I do think however that people do not have the right to complain about anything that they have not researched/voted on when it comes to government. For a government to "work" (however you want to define that parameter) you need a populace that is willing to educate itself on the matters.

This is irrational. Of course you have a right to complain regardless of what you actually do. That's ridiculous. I don't really see how telling somebody that they can't complain about who got elected because they didn't vote is much different than an ad hominem since it takes into account only attributes of the person making the argument and not the argument itself.

 

[Dak]

Depends on what we are really discussing here. The system I have experienced (the system based on passing test scores which is also temporally inefficient) is incredibly flawed (I AGREE WITH THIS!)
A fix is obviously necessary, but the question is: is it possible? We must remember, conceivability and possibility are not synonymous - can we really create a system that can successfully handle our large population?

It is another thing to work toward getting rid of the bloated bureaucracy that exists within a said system to hopefully make an impact on how money is spent. And frankly, creating a tax-exempt donation system which gives a tax break to the donor (who also has the power to specify what his/her money can be used for), is not a bad thing.

Apparently we agree more than I expected, but where you see some improvement to a system thats flawed as better than no improvement, I see improvement to a fundamentally flawed system as enabling. There is a saying in the Marines "Good initiative... bad judgement." Imo it fits here.

The entire educational system needs the guts ripped out, instead of bandaids patched on.

 

[Kara-Shehr]

The entire educational system needs the guts ripped out, instead of bandaids patched on.

Agreed. I feel the educational system in America needs to start from sqaure one, completely new almost. Realistically, that will not happen though.

 

[unknown]

but that would involve taking out the profit incentive for everybody involved in education (textbook companies, curriculum designing companies, etc...) and that's anti-capitalism!

 

[zabu of nΩd]

I think the suggestion that the act of not voting in itself is somehow hideously irresponsible and neglectful is a bunch of nescient, idealistic nonsense that is not reflective of reality. People shouldn't be compelled to make excuses for not voting so that it will be more difficult for pretentious people to make them feel guilty about not fulfilling their imaginary duties. It is considerably more irresponsible to vote out of ignorance than it is to refrain from voting. Anybody who feels as though they're not particularly well informed should refrain from voting.

Not sure how much of this if any was directed at me, but anyway: I agree that it is more irresponsible to vote out of ignorance than to refrain from voting, but if you're trying to argue that ignorance excuses anyone from (A) making an effort to learn about what's being voted on before an election, or (B) at least showing up at the polls to examine the ballots, then your argument as it stands is not a convincing one.

And frankly, I find it difficult to fault people who have become so disenchanted with the political arena that they express apathy toward it, including simply avoiding it. The more I've delved into politics and political ideologies and political campaigning and maneuvering, the less I've wanted to continue, and I imagine there are many other examples like this. I have a slight bit of admiration for those who continue to believe that they are actually empowered with the ability to enact real, meaningful, tangible change or that their one individual vote means much at all in and of itself, but I've grown weary of those who take it beyond themselves and attempt to obligate others to "get involved" by suggesting that if they don't actively participate, then that means that they have no real knowledge and therefore they are in no position to complain or critique or analyze political issues.

There's a reason for "guilting people into getting involved" beyond just the "getting involved" part. The very attitude that nothing can be done to improve things is itself much of the reason why so little actually gets done. The more people portray the political situation as hopeless, the less of a chance there is that any steps will be taken toward improving the situation.

The fact that there is nothing to gain from apathy and everything to lose is precisely why apathy should not be propagated. Even if one lacks the time, resources or motivation to be politically active, one should at least acknowledge that it is worthwhile for anyone not lacking these things to be politically active. To deny it only decreases the likelihood of activism to succeed whenever you communicate that denial to others.

 

[skeptik]

I didn't deny any of that. The only thing that I was arguing against is that not voting means you have no right to voice your opinion. Besides, wouldn't telling people who don't vote that they can't express their discontent only help perpetuate the same problems that you say their not voting is propagating?

I also didn't say that people shouldn't vote or should be ignorant. I said that if people ARE ignorant, then they shouldn't vote (until they educate themselves), and that I don't blame people for not wanting to be involved in the political system, a part of that being not voting. It would be wonderful if everybody felt empowered and all shared the exact same goal and all wrote in the greatest presidential candidate ever and he was elected and saved the world. Realistically though, one of the things one accounts for is the realism of others, and that includes expecting that people believe that, realistically, not enough people are going to act without being prompted, and they don't want to put their efforts toward an endeavor that's bound to fail. Either everyone is involved or nobody will get involved. And yes, this is fatalistic, self-defeating, and self-fulfilling all at the same time. Hope that clarifies what I was saying.

Edit: Also, maybe it's just me, but lines like that "nothing to gain and everything to lose" one are the kind of things 'activists' say to people who don't get involved that just annoys them and make them not want to get involved. A bit hyperbolic if you ask me.

 

[zabu of nΩd]

Hope that clarifies what I was saying.

For the most part, though I don't see why you bring up realism as if it is not accounted for in my statements. I am well aware of the vast unlikelihood of "saving the world". My point was that much of the reason why such a thing is unlikely is because of the perceptions of most voters, who have written off any possible "out of the box" solution as not worth considering.

Besides, wouldn't telling people who don't vote that they can't express their discontent only help perpetuate the same problems that you say their not voting is propagating?

I didn't claim that people who don't vote should not express their discontent.

Edit: Also, maybe it's just me, but lines like that "nothing to gain and everything to lose" one are the kind of things 'activists' say to people who don't get involved that just annoys them and make them not want to get involved. A bit hyperbolic if you ask me.

I could have worded it better, but the point is clear enough I think. You touch on an important issue, though -- many activists do a poor job of articulating the role that perception plays in politics, and it's the kind of concept that if poorly articulated leaves the speaker quite vulnerable to being labeled a crackpot.

Honestly I think this acknowledgement of the powers of perception is of a similar importance to the "modern belief system" as are the concepts of individual freedom, religious skepticism or gender/race/etc equality, but for whatever reason it is lagging behind those other philosophies in its influence on humanity.

 

[Pessimism]

This is irrational. Of course you have a right to complain regardless of what you actually do. That's ridiculous. I don't really see how telling somebody that they can't complain about who got elected because they didn't vote is much different than an ad hominem since it takes into account only attributes of the person making the argument and not the argument itself.

I think people have the (physical) ability to do as they wish. Sure, they can voice their weightless opinions, there is no doubt about that. But when you have the opportunity to actually do something to alleviate the pressures/stresses that exist in the system by educating yourself on the matters at hand, and willfully disregard said abilities in order to remain ignorant, then no - I don't believe they have a valid reason to complain.

Voter registration laws and ballot access for propositions and 3rd party candidates are a big turn off for me. I feel quite comfortable with my choice of not voting, and I'll be damned if someone is going to tell me I'm being irresponsible for exercising my right to not participate in a political system that I feel is a sham.

I agree with your first statement. It's not so much a turn off for me as it is a thing that induces a raging hatred. I would find not voting at all a valid position if we were in fact in a totalitarian regime such as North Korea; fact is though, we aren't. The only way not voting would work would be to gather a community, gain a voice, and all together opt out of the vote. Whether or not such a demonstration would work is totally conjecture (could totally work or could totally fail, who knows). The lack of votes right now is due to apathy, which I find very counterproductive for such a movement.

 

[Kara-Shehr]

The only way not voting would work would be to gather a community, gain a voice, and all together opt out of the vote. Whether or not such a demonstration would work is totally conjecture (could totally work or could totally fail, who knows). The lack of votes right now is due to apathy, which I find very counterproductive for such a movement.

Honestly, I say I don't vote sometimes to make people think I'm too cool for politics or I say that it bores me. Which isn't at all true and is a complete and utter lie. I've lost sleep over certain issues on a number of occasions.

On the other hand I become discouraged from voting when I take into account all the points made against it. However that being said when I get all fired up in an argument over Glen Beck's latest hair brained theory I have the burning desire to become politically active. I just haven't made up my mind yet. This election though.....I'm just gonna sit out. I'll complain about who won and how they'll fuck everything up later lol.

 

[Badbird]

This.

Also, for Richard and everyone else who shares his attitude, there are more options than just Republicans and Democrats for fuck's sake. If other candidates aren't on the ballot in your locality, it's probably your fault for not having signed their petitions and encouraged others to do the same.

I'm not saying I am any more diligent about this than the rest of you, but I'm also not in denial that supporting minor/independent candidates is better than doing fucking nothing. The two-party duopoly on politics is not going to go away if people don't start giving a shit.

Great comment vihris. When people don't know shit about third party members, they will keep making the two party system in power forever.

 

[Dak]

The main reason people are becoming disenfranchised with voting is that in nearly every case, politicians don't do what they say they will.

Also, rampant allegations of voter and counting method fraud do not help. Now that it looks like I wil be where I am at for a while I intend to start educating myself in local politics to start with.

 

[King Richard]

I'm still quoting from the second page because I fell asleep last night before I had a chance to reply to these two comments. Bear with me, I'll get to the third page in a bit. Or you could always ignore me.

But it's more than someone's right, in fact, it is their duty, have you ever heard of civic duty? Or the social contract? Our constitution was influenced by that a fair bit. It IS one's duty to vote, doing otherwise is irresponsible.

No, it is not someone's duty. I equate the responsibility of voting with voluntary military service. Military service isn't mandatory either lawfully or morally, therefore neither should voting.

What you are saying is you should vote, period, because you say so. There is no moral law that states you have to vote, or that you have to give charitable donations, or anything like that. Voting isn't something you're voluntold to do like pay outrageous taxes, it's simply a right that the American people have is all. Kind of like freedom of speech, it's there if you want to use it, if not who you shouldn't feel bad or looked down upon for not exercising your right to tell them to go fuck themselves if you so please.

This.

Also, for Richard and everyone else who shares his attitude, there are more options than just Republicans and Democrats for fuck's sake. If other candidates aren't on the ballot in your locality, it's probably your fault for not having signed their petitions and encouraged others to do the same.

I'm not saying I am any more diligent about this than the rest of you, but I'm also not in denial that supporting minor/independent candidates is better than doing fucking nothing. The two-party duopoly on politics is not going to go away if people don't start giving a shit.

Ok, that'a fair point but answer me this: who in reality always wins the election? A Republican or Democract. So wasting a vote on a third party candidate is the equivalent of not voting in the first place. It may not necessarily feel that way to the voter, but that's the sad reality of the situation.

edit: Just read the last page and have nothing else to add. Dodens made some good points.

 

[zabu of nΩd]

So wasting a vote on a third party candidate is the equivalent of not voting in the first place. It may not necessarily feel that way to the voter, but that's the sad reality of the situation.

Again, I disagree and I believe I can refute that claim. More on this tonight.

 

[Saparmurat_Niyazov]

Agreed. I feel the educational system in America needs to start from sqaure one, completely new almost. Realistically, that will not happen though.

So does our tax and justice system, making real change even less likely.

 

[Einherjar86]

I think people have the (physical) ability to do as they wish. Sure, they can voice their weightless opinions, there is no doubt about that. But when you have the opportunity to actually do something to alleviate the pressures/stresses that exist in the system by educating yourself on the matters at hand, and willfully disregard said abilities in order to remain ignorant, then no - I don't believe they have a valid reason to complain.

Why?

It's the government's role to provide for (depending on who you ask)/secure/protect its citizens. If someone doesn't vote, but is still a citizen of this country, he or she has a right to complain if the government in power isn't acting in a "proper" manner. Not voting is no reason for, in turn, not complaining.

You say: "Well you didn't vote, so you don't really have a reason to complain like the rest of us."

I say: "Who gives a fuck if someone didn't vote?"

It doesn't make sense.

The main reason people are becoming disenfranchised with voting is that in nearly every case, politicians don't do what they say they will.

THIS.

Again, our system gives voters the illusion that they're voting for an individual who will somehow be different. This is not the case, and more people are waking up to that fact. As soon as a candidate is elected into office, he or she almost immediately starts conforming to the pressures of the party. They say, "Alright, we helped get you elected, now this is what you're gonna do..."

You always vote for a party, it doesn't matter if you don't subscribe to any particular party or if you only vote on issues and not candidates. Every single issue that's voted on has become a political issue, which means that they're taglines and identification boundaries for respective political parties. If there was a true meaning behind these issues, we no longer recognize it. They've all become ideologized.

 

[King Richard]

Here's a little fuel for the fire:

http://gawker.com/5681576/democrati...ing-outburst-was-engineered-by-gop-tricksters

All of this bullshit just so someone of their party could get elected. Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.