Euro 2016 Fantasy League + Discussion Thread

the loss of gomez really killed them i think. they looked more or less the same as they looked in the groups before they realised the benefits of having him up top. the stats sum it up: they had 79% of possession in the final third but had less shots from inside the box and less shots on target than france. the whole balance of that team offensively looks wrong when they don't have a proper striker in there (muller doesn't count), and that's been the case with germany for a decade or more.

france portugal will be a very different kind of game, and probably a bit of a snoozefest unfortunately. france will get the majority of the ball, and they haven't looked great in games when that's been the case so far - it remains to be seen whether they can unlock a team that really congests the midfield and minimises space. i actually give france a better chance of winning now that i've seen the way they handled germany's aerial bombardment today, but of course defending crosses from portugal is a different kettle of fish. i wouldn't be shocked at all to see portugal win, they're horrible but seemingly really good at grinding games out.
 
shoutout to me for my predictions in this thread lol, been nailing them mostly. although the above was kind of a halfway prediction, and if you'd told me ronaldo would be out after 25 i'd have said france all the way.

congrats to portugal anyways. one of the most hideous to watch teams ever to win a major tournament, but they were dragging themselves through by sheer will at times and i've found it pretty impressive. as much as i dislike him, pepe has had an incredible tournament.
 
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yeah congrats to them but it's a kick in the ass for european football as they were 3rd in the group. sissoko had a great game, he didn't look as the same player who wore newcastle shirt. portugal have finally avenged famous 2004 final against greece and they also presented anti-football. lucky goal from a guy who struggled to get a place at Swansea haha.
 
I watched most of this match even though I'm not much of a football fan. It was indeed pretty dull. I had to laugh at Ronaldo rolling around on the floor crying and then wailing while being stretchered out - how fucking dramatic.

Disappointing day in sport - the Wimbledon men's final was also kinda uninteresting. I never once thought that Murray wouldn't win.
 
and UFC 200 was shit last night (not to mention the klitschko fury rematch that got postponed). british grand prix was pretty good tho 'cause of the rain

it was a poor euros, the format really didn't work. i'm not against there being 24 teams but i think you should just have the first 6 plus two 2nd placed teams qualifying, that'd make teams play a lot more aggressively in the groups. i would also personally do away with extra time, i don't think that encourages attacking play either.

i felt kinda bad for ronaldo tbh, he was never gonna have a moment like that ever again and the dude eats drinks and sleeps football, gotta be hard to take. he is a total diva though.

and yeah, murray raonic was never gonna be exciting unfortunately, that final was doomed as soon as federer lost (although i think murray would've beaten fed in 3 too). still a magnificent performance though, this tournament is the best he's ever looked in my opinion. stay with lendl this time, idiot.
 
It's just funny that Portugal managed to win by being so defensive the whole tournament and getting loads of draws.

I've been rooting for Federer more has he's been in decline, rooting for him to win that one last grandslam. I was sad when he lost to Roanic, especially when I'd convinced myself in the 4th set that it was an easy win. That double fault in the game to go to a tie break where he was 40 - love up, wtf?!

I actually think he would have beat Murray in the final. It's kinda strange with the top 3 but I think that: Djokovic would beat Federer, Murray would have beat Djokovic, but Federer would beat Murray. Agreed that Murray was playing great, though. He's just never been one of my favourites to watch.
 
it's not the first time that's happened - in fact, it happened to portugal themselves in 2004 when greece did more or less the same thing and beat them in the final on their own patch. liverpool and chelsea both won the CL last decade with largely defensive performances too. it isn't fun to watch but they don't really have the personnel to play another way i guess, and it's a small country that punches well above its weight in general, so props to them.

i've been rooting for fed too but he was just getting overpowered, every second serve got murdered by raonic and he's not as good of a returner as murray either, especially not nowadays. he's still a very good player but i think that final slam may be beyond him. he's actually astonishingly good for his age, i'm not sure anyone has ever been this good at this age before. his graceful technical style ages much better than the physicality of his rivals.

but ya i don't agree that he'd beat this version of murray now. when murray's getting unforced errors in single figures most matches and hitting 80+% first serves in, he's terrifying - peak federer would've had problems, this federer would've been in deep shit. i'd give djokovic way more of a chance to beat him, he's won 16 of their last 19 meetings lol, murray has no answer to djoko anymore unless he's having a rare off day. granted, he didn't seem quite right in this tournament so that would've given murray more of a chance, but generally speaking he has murray's number.
 
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i guess one advantage federer would've had in a final vs. murray is that the crowd would be a lot more split, whereas with djokovic vs. murray they'd be more partisan.
 
Yeah but he lost to Murray in their only Wimbledon final meeting and it wasn't even close. Grass isn't his best surface. At the same time he did beat Murray in the 2 previous slams finals this year so I actually think it'd have been close match, probably 5 sets. There was clearly something wrong with Djokovic, he kept saying how he didn't want to talk about it in the interviews following his loss to Querrey.

Federer easily dispatched Murray in their Wimbledon final, and if it wasn't for Djokovic being such a beast I'm convinced he'd have won 2014 and 2015. Grass is clearly his best surface these days so I do think he could have beat Murray.

The commentator have always said that Nadal's incredibly physical style could lead to a lot of injuries and a shorter career at the top level and that seems to be true. Maybe that will also happen with Djokovic and Murray. My problem with those 2 is that they are so amazing at returning and running down every ball at the baseline, but they don't really have that one amazing, graceful shot. Both Federer's forehand and single-handed backhand at their peak were phenomenal, and then you have Wawrinka and Gasquet's single-handed backhands which are amazing to watch. Nadal's topspin forehand was ridiculous a few years back.
 
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Will Messi's parole officer allow him to hold Ronaldo's gold medal? I kid...

But seriously, props to Portugal. It wasn't a fluke win today; thry went tow to toe with France without their best player and made the big play that France couldn't. I'm glad to see the likes of Ronaldo and Pepe get a title and in general for Portugal, a country that has been close so many times, finally come out on top.
 
Yeah but he lost to Murray in their only Wimbledon final meeting and it wasn't even close. Grass isn't his best surface.

that was in 2013 though lol, he's improved a massive amount since then. also he's won 3 wimbledons, he's pretty effin' good on grass. like, that's as many as mcenroe and becker, more than connors and nadal. the era may not be as strong in all of those cases but it hasn't been bad either IMO. plus murray and djokovic are fairly similar in terms of style, so any argument against djokovic being ill-suited to grass can probably be levelled at murray too.

Federer easily dispatched Murray in their Wimbledon final, and if it wasn't for Djokovic being such a beast I'm convinced he'd have won 2014 and 2015. Grass is clearly his best surface these days so I do think he could have beat Murray.

he'd have a chance of course, but then i don't think he'd have lost to raonic (or almost cilic) in 2014 or 2015 (well, he beat raonic in '14 but i concede he was a rawer talent then). it's unrealistic to expect him to maintain the same level he had a year or two ago when he's had multiple injuries and hasn't won a tournament of any description since november of last year (and only reached two finals for that matter in 9 attempts) - to put that into context, in 2015 he'd won four already before wimbledon came along. the man's getting old, alas, and murray's also looking as good as he ever has if not better. i really don't think federer would be the favourite in that match with any bookmaker - 60-40 in murray's favour would be reasonable to me. still would've been more hotly and entertainingly contested than today's match.

The commentator have always said that Nadal's incredibly physical style could lead to a lot of injuries and a shorter career at the top level and that seems to be true. Maybe that will also happen with Djokovic and Murray. My problem with those 2 is that they are so amazing at returning and running down every ball at the baseline, but they don't really have that one amazing, graceful shot. Both Federer's forehand and single-handed backhand at their peak were phenomenal, and then you have Wawrinka and Gasquet's single-handed backhands which are amazing to watch. Nadal's topspin forehand was ridiculous a few years back.

well, murray has his drop shot, or he likes to think so ;) you're right though, although i think djokovic is probably more complete and flawless than any of the players you mention, so that's a fairly even trade. murray and djokovic aren't as purely physical as nadal i don't think, the way nadal plays just puts so much weight on his knees, i always thought he'd have a short shelf life. djokovic in particular seems a lot more flexible and less explosive in his movements to me, i don't sense he's straining his body in the same way - i highly doubt he'll last as long as federer at the top either though.

sry to derail the thread but fuck it the football's over :rofl:
 
he'd have a chance of course, but then i don't think he'd have lost to raonic (or almost cilic) in 2014 or 2015 (well, he beat raonic in '14 but i concede he was a rawer talent then). it's unrealistic to expect him to maintain the same level he had a year or two ago when he's had multiple injuries and hasn't won a tournament of any description since november of last year (and only reached two finals for that matter in 9 attempts) - to put that into context, in 2015 he'd won four already before wimbledon came along. the man's getting old, alas, and murray's also looking as good as he ever has if not better. i really don't think federer would be the favourite in that match with any bookmaker - 60-40 in murray's favour would be reasonable to me. still would've been more hotly and entertainingly contested than today's match.

As you said, Murray has a much better return of serve than Federer now, and I think that was his biggest issue with Raonic and is the reason why I never thought he had a chance against Murray. I'd say that Raonic also played better against Feds than Murray, especially that 5th set where he was dominating. Federer has been injured and hadn't played nearly as much going into Wimbledon as usual, in fact I think they said that the 2016 French Open was the first Slam he'd missed since 2002 or something ridiculous.


well, murray has his drop shot, or he likes to think so ;) you're right though, although i think djokovic is probably more complete and flawless than any of the players you mention, so that's a fairly even trade. murray and djokovic aren't as purely physical as nadal i don't think, the way nadal plays just puts so much weight on his knees, i always thought he'd have a short shelf life. djokovic in particular seems a lot more flexible and less explosive in his movements to me, i don't sense he's straining his body in the same way - i highly doubt he'll last as long as federer at the top either though.

Haha, those infamous Murray drop shots! He didn't try to throw many in during the final. Yeah, I'd agree with this, Djok is not nearly as physical. But he does tend to play a lot of really long matches, where every point is a battle, and I wonder how much impact that will have on his body. After the disappointment of the final, I watched some highlights from classic past finals including the 2012 Australian Open of Nadal vs Djokovic. Almost every fucking point was a war of attrition and battle of sheer will, that has to take its toll. I mean some sets that ended in a tie break were 90 minutes long! Do you think he'll be able to match/overtake Federer's 17 Slams? Doesn't seem like he has too much competition at the minute, except from Murray.

Funny you brought up the different eras. I was thinking about all these stats and overall rankings earlier myself. Imagine if Nadal hadn't been a thing, then Federer would have at least like another 4 Slams from the French Open alone. Then you have Serena equalling Graf's 22, but Graf's main competition (Seles) had to be stabbed by a crazed Graf fan for her to be able to win that many. Do you watch the women's btw? A lot of people don't like it, and I don't find it nearly as entertaining as the men's, but I'll still watch some matches.

sry to derail the thread but fuck it the football's over :rofl:

As you said, the football is over and we don't have a thread for tennis. Not sure there's enough people here that even watch it to warrant its own thread.
 
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A dull tournament in a nutshell. Too many goalless draws and primarily too many teams which were playing ultra defensively, i.e. Northern Ireland or Slovakia. It's not good for the crowd's overall enjoyment.
 
Federer has been injured and hadn't played nearly as much going into Wimbledon as usual, in fact I think they said that the 2016 French Open was the first Slam he'd missed since 2002 or something ridiculous.

i said this tbf, i think that's another argument against him beating murray though, injuries are both symptomatic of physical decline and contributors to it, particularly given that he was never injured in his prime. i don't think it's a good sign. his longevity and reliability are incredible though definitely, iirc he went on an insane run of reaching grand slam semi finals for years.

Haha, those infamous Murray drop shots! He didn't try to throw many in during the final. Yeah, I'd agree with this, Djok is not nearly as physical. But he does tend to play a lot of really long matches, where every point is a battle, and I wonder how much impact that will have on his body. After the disappointment of the final, I watched some highlights from classic past finals including the 2012 Australian Open of Nadal vs Djokovic. Almost every fucking point was a war of attrition and battle of sheer will, that has to take its toll. I mean some sets that ended in a tie break were 90 minutes long! Do you think he'll be able to match/overtake Federer's 17 Slams? Doesn't seem like he has too much competition at the minute, except from Murray.

ahh yeah i remember that one. another one that i always remember, aside from the obvious, is that ridiculous federer roddick wimbledon final that went to 16-14 in the fifth. it wasn't the prettiest game but it was such a long exhausting war, they both left everything on the court that day. i know henman never made a final but he had some great matches too, he was a wonderful player who unfortunately didn't possess the physical qualities to compete in modern eras - if he'd been around decades earlier he'd now be regarded as one of the all time greats i think. just to tie those two things together, i remember roddick surprisingly saying that henman was pretty much his hero.

as for djokovic, it's gonna be close. only one man in the open era (aside from laver i guess), andre agassi, has managed to win 5 slams after turning 29, and aside from him nobody else has won more than 3 - djokovic needs 6 (he's already got 1) to tie fed or 7 to beat him. but djokovic is extraordinary and has rewritten plenty of history already, plus i guess fitness is just generally better these days and you're right that it's not the most difficult era atm. i'd kind of like federer to retain that record for a long time just because i think with his style and technical brilliance he deserves it, but i admire both men a lot.

Funny you brought up the different eras. I was thinking about all these stats and overall rankings earlier myself. Imagine if Nadal hadn't been a thing, then Federer would have at least like another 4 Slams from the French Open alone. Then you have Serena equalling Graf's 22, but Graf's main competition (Seles) had to be stabbed by a crazed Graf fan for her to be able to win that many. Do you watch the women's btw? A lot of people don't like it, and I don't find it nearly as entertaining as the men's, but I'll still watch some matches.

i feel sorry for murray actually, i genuinely think he'd have close to 10 slams himself if he'd emerged at the turn of the century INSTEAD of federer. that was a rather easy era prior to nadal, which is why people (IMO legitimately) question whether federer can be seen as better than nadal given their h2h record - but then, like i said above, he plays with such style and gracefulness that he was always gonna live longer in the memory than nadal.

but yeah this is why stats can only tell you so much, or at least the basic stats can. delving deeper can be pretty interesting though, i highly recommend browsing this wiki if you haven't already, lots of interesting nuggets of info there. particularly interesting are the top win percentages across history on various surfaces 'n shit like that. borg's grand slams winning percentage for example is absolutely mental.
 
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A dull tournament in a nutshell. Too many goalless draws and primarily too many teams which were playing ultra defensively, i.e. Northern Ireland or Slovakia. It's not good for the crowd's overall enjoyment.

yeah, although i think international football has been generally dull for a while tbh, too much fatigue in the summer these days. also there's less willingness to allow risk and spontaneity these days in modern football, teams all have to be perfectly oiled, organised and athletic machines. there are exceptions of course but that's the trend. it's a shame.
 
The 2014 World Cup was super entertaining. I think this was just a shit tournament hurt by a terrible format. Too many teams playing for the draw (i.e. France v. Switzerland) or even to even to just lose a close one (i.e. Northern Ireland v. Germany).

But yeah, it's also true that you'll always have more defensive teams in international toutnaments, because it's easier to set up a defensive system than an offensive one. With so little time together, international teams often focus on defense moreso than a club side does.
 
true, the 2014 final was shite too though.

and yeah i agree with the latter point. i'm not sure a different format would've changed things that much. spain are always boring and low-risk in recent years, germany have become more and more like spain, france played a very functional way for a while before this, italy and portugal are notoriously defensive and lacking in offensive talent, england and belgium are notoriously badly managed and disjointed, holland didn't qualify. the previous format might've removed some of the lesser teams that were just trying to nick a goal on the break, but it wouldn't have changed any of the above. plus i actually think one of the few entertaining things about this tournament was teams like wales and iceland overperforming.
 
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true, the 2014 final was shite too though.

I disagree. It was an intense and competitive match with numerous chances for both teams.

and yeah i agree with the latter point. i'm not sure a different format would've changed things that much. spain are always boring and low-risk in recent years, germany have become more and more like spain, france played a very functional way for a while before this, italy and portugal are notoriously defensive and lacking in offensive talent, england and belgium are notoriously badly managed and disjointed, holland didn't qualify. the previous format might've removed some of the lesser teams that were just trying to nick a goal on the break, but it wouldn't have changed any of the above. plus i actually think one of the few entertaining things about this tournament was teams like wales and iceland overperforming.

I think would have improved the group stage. Fewer teams could have played for the draw or close loss. I do agree that there's no team consistantly playing at an elite level in Europe right now. France, Germany and Spain are probably the closest, but they all have fatal flaws at the moment. Germany needs a striker, France needs stronger defenders. On paper, it looks like Spain is the most well rounded, but it seems age and fatigue may be kicking in for a number of players.
 
I think would have improved the group stage. Fewer teams could have played for the draw or close loss.

yea i agree with that much, i suggested above that 8 qualifying for the knockouts instead of 16 would've been way better.

I do agree that there's no team consistantly playing at an elite level in Europe right now. France, Germany and Spain are probably the closest, but they all have fatal flaws at the moment. Germany needs a striker, France needs stronger defenders. On paper, it looks like Spain is the most well rounded, but it seems age and fatigue may be kicking in for a number of players.

tbf to germany they had a striker who was fitting their system beautifully, he just happened to get injured. they should've brought a backup though, they look so blunt without one - twas always the same when they used to drop klose and end up recalling him again. i actually think france's midfield was the biggest problem most of the time despite the talent at their disposal - they looked pretty damned solid once umtiti came into the back line, but the midfield balance didn't work and they couldn't get control of that final at all. they need to work out exactly how they want to play while also making sure to nullify the specific threats of opponents, deschamps repeatedly got that wrong and was eventually made to pay for it. spain on the other hand are just not adaptable enough in my opinion. when they had xavi and xabi they were just about able to play the same way every game without it being a problem (although even then it was often a struggle), but nowadays they can't do it against a team like italy that's built specifically to counter that. loew understood this when he changed germany to a matching 352 for their game.
 
ahh yeah i remember that one. another one that i always remember, aside from the obvious, is that ridiculous federer roddick wimbledon final that went to 16-14 in the fifth. it wasn't the prettiest game but it was such a long exhausting war, they both left everything on the court that day.

I remember this one too. I was surprised at the level Roddick was playing at, especially since he'd been crushed by Federer in their WImbledon final meetings in 2004 and 2005. I even think I may have been supporting Roddick that match as I was sick of Federer winning! How times change.

i know henman never made a final but he had some great matches too, he was a wonderful player who unfortunately didn't possess the physical qualities to compete in modern eras - if he'd been around decades earlier he'd now be regarded as one of the all time greats i think. just to tie those two things together, i remember roddick surprisingly saying that henman was pretty much his hero.

I don't know if I'd go this far. I think he was a severely underrated player and much better than he got credit for. Thinking back though, I agree with your point of him not being physical enough. He was often blasted off the court.

as for djokovic, it's gonna be close. only one man in the open era (aside from laver i guess), andre agassi, has managed to win 5 slams after turning 29, and aside from him nobody else has won more than 3 - djokovic needs 6 (he's already got 1) to tie fed or 7 to beat him. but djokovic is extraordinary and has rewritten plenty of history already, plus i guess fitness is just generally better these days and you're right that it's not the most difficult era atm. i'd kind of like federer to retain that record for a long time just because i think with his style and technical brilliance he deserves it, but i admire both men a lot.

Obviously they're both amazing and can be counted among the best ever. Djokovic fans do annoy me, though. They say how Federer was dominating in a 'weak era' (ridiculous to me, Federer was just on his own level), but then they use the fact that Djoko is now beating Federer this past few years to validate their claims of Djokovic being the best? This makes no sense.


i feel sorry for murray actually, i genuinely think he'd have close to 10 slams himself if he'd emerged at the turn of the century INSTEAD of federer. that was a rather easy era prior to nadal, which is why people (IMO legitimately) question whether federer can be seen as better than nadal given their h2h record - but then, like i said above, he plays with such style and gracefulness that he was always gonna live longer in the memory than nadal.

I don''t really care about Murray tbh. I've never found him that interesting to watch. As you alluded to earlier, his playstyle is very similar to Djoko but one is clearly more effective than the other.

As for Nadal/Federer, I feel that this needs to be qualified by saying that almost half (15 out of 34) of their matches have been on clay, which is by far Nadal's best surface. He's probably the greatest clay court play ever. 9 French Open wins is ridiculous. There have been times throughout their careers where one has been stronger than the other I'd say. I'm a big fan of both, but overall I'd give it to Federer, except on clay.

but yeah this is why stats can only tell you so much, or at least the basic stats can. delving deeper can be pretty interesting though, i highly recommend browsing this wiki if you haven't already, lots of interesting nuggets of info there. particularly interesting are the top win percentages across history on various surfaces 'n shit like that. borg's grand slams winning percentage for example is absolutely mental.

Forgot about this Wiki, so thanks. I love looking into the stats and analysing these things almost as much as watching it. As you said, some of these records are outrageous.

You didn't answer my question about watching the women's.
 
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