Faith ?

[HemeHaci]

To muslims:

Why did mohammad marry and have sex with a 7 year old girl? What is the reasoning given for this? in your opinions is this justified?

http://www.topix.com/forum/world/denmark/TC5P1RV36M089UAH6

Read it all, and if you lack time I can send you the most relevant parts. But don't post such popular things before making even the simplest research about it, this is not a weak point not a new invention about Islam or anything.

By the way her age is not 7, there are estimations about her age (being around 9) but at those times people didnt note childrens (especially girls) birthday time.

 

[de_aztec]

its not a weakpoint but it sure is funny

 

[Don Corleone]

To muslims:

Why did mohammad marry and have sex with a 7 year old girl? What is the reasoning given for this? in your opinions is this justified?

seven? this is the first time i hear of that number among all the lies attributed to the prophet's marriage to aisha. the most common number thrown around is nine.

this is another topic that has been debated a lot and is under a lot of speculation. turkish historian omer riza dogrul claims she was 17-18 years old when she was married to mohammed. recently, this has been mentioned again in the turkish media, too. im sorry the link is from a turkish news site but it's just to show that i am not making it up:

http://www.habertakimi.com/103086-Hz-Ayse-Evlendiginde-9-Yasinda-Degildi.html

omer riza dogrul (died in 1952) points out that aisha helped in the battles of uhud and badr which took place miles away from their homes. and if the claim that she married mohammed at the age of nine is true, she must have been seven or eight during these wars. aisha also says she was a "jariya" (young girl) not a "sibyah" (infant) when the al-Qamar surah was written (during their marriage).

historians Taqribul-tehzib and Al-bidayah report that Aisha died in 73 A.H. (after hijri) when she was a 100 years old. this makes aisha about 16-17 when she married.

omer dogrul says that the historian ibn sa'd either intentionally distorted the truth or is mistaken. this lead to many other islamic historians to copy the same mistake in their recountings (especially during the moorish period in which the islamic teachings have obviously been distorted a lot for their own benefits) and gave material for non-believers to object to islam.

now, if you ask my opinion, i would never approve of a marriage between a 16-17-year old and an older man or a man having 8-9 wives TODAY. but it was absolutely ordinary for people back in the day who lived for 40-50 years max to get married so early and have so many wives during such times of war and desperation. i believe all of us would do the same if we lived in that area at that time.

 

[de_aztec]

fair enough

 

[affinityband]

believing in anything is pretty gay

 

[de_aztec]

how about equality?

 

[hexwind]

^^ Blindly ?? agreed ! Everyone should do their home work not in order to prove something wrong/right coz they may misrepresent/misunderstand some stuff but to seek for the real truth.

 

[affinityband]

lol @ equality

 

[Don Corleone]

fair enough

it's nice to see that you are not blindly opposing islam just like others blindly follow their own beliefs - whom i denounce openly myself. blind faith in anything (or nothing, likewise) is destructive as it leads to intolerance inevitably. knowledge helps you appreciate other opinions, beliefs etc. (this goes for all you ignorant atheists, too. it is so easy to call a believer "stupid" when you have been sitting on your ass whole life not seeking knowledge and trying to see through their eyes.) i respect all kinds of beliefs and absolutely realize that if i were born in, say, india, i would very likely be a buddhist. or maybe a mormon if i were born in minnesota. i was born in istanbul to a muslim family (who are not really religious but are people of humanist virtue); therefore, im a muslim but im constantly reading about other beliefs and religions and seeking the truth for myself. i have always believed in a higher Deity and have seen that it is very close to what has been described to me so far in Islam. thats why im a muslim mainly. im very confident that i would still seek this information if i were born to another religion. this also means that islam may not be my final destination at all.

regarding my previous post, dont get me wrong, those bits of information that i gave you are from third parties...just like the bits of information who claim the opposite that mohammed did marry a nine-year-old. in today's age, it is so hard for us to reach the ultimate truth about anything actually: because there are so many different voices, so many different versions of a story, and most of all, so many ill-natured people who distort knowledge to their advantages. just like about mohammad's marriage to aisha...all i could give was my own line of logic. if you believe it, how wonderful. if not, well, not much that i can do for you. all i expect is just respect for my own perspective. (remember, these are happenings from 1500 years ago where nothing, absolutely nothing, is recorded like information is recorded today.)

it's surprising to see how a thread on UM got me so hooked after so many years. it used to be like this in 2002-2003 when we had the off-topic section. seeing its popularity, im sure many agree.

 

[Antyman]

seven? this is the first time i hear of that number among all the lies attributed to the prophet's marriage to aisha. the most common number thrown around is nine.

this is another topic that has been debated a lot and is under a lot of speculation. turkish historian omer riza dogrul claims she was 17-18 years old when she was married to mohammed. recently, this has been mentioned again in the turkish media, too. im sorry the link is from a turkish news site but it's just to show that i am not making it up:

http://www.habertakimi.com/103086-Hz-Ayse-Evlendiginde-9-Yasinda-Degildi.html

omer riza dogrul (died in 1952) points out that aisha helped in the battles of uhud and badr which took place miles away from their homes. and if the claim that she married mohammed at the age of nine is true, she must have been seven or eight during these wars. aisha also says she was a "jariya" (young girl) not a "sibyah" (infant) when the al-Qamar surah was written (during their marriage).

historians Taqribul-tehzib and Al-bidayah report that Aisha died in 73 A.H. (after hijri) when she was a 100 years old. this makes aisha about 16-17 when she married.

omer dogrul says that the historian ibn sa'd either intentionally distorted the truth or is mistaken. this lead to many other islamic historians to copy the same mistake in their recountings (especially during the moorish period in which the islamic teachings have obviously been distorted a lot for their own benefits) and gave material for non-believers to object to islam.

now, if you ask my opinion, i would never approve of a marriage between a 16-17-year old and an older man or a man having 8-9 wives TODAY. but it was absolutely ordinary for people back in the day who lived for 40-50 years max to get married so early and have so many wives during such times of war and desperation. i believe all of us would do the same if we lived in that area at that time.

I guess some historicans seek evidence with the intention of protecting the reputation of him in these kind of situations. What do you think about that?

I agree on the moral changes since then. Back then it was a "normal" thing to do, who knows, in 200 years or so, people might find us really strange for wearing clothes.
I believe that Aisha was young. That's it. It's slightly impossible to prove her exact age, she might have been a mature 9 year old, or a childish 25 year old.
.. no one will ever know..

 

[Don Corleone]

I guess some historicans seek evidence with the intention of protecting the reputation of him in these kind of situations. What do you think about that?

of course...just like some historians who are trying to do the opposite. thats why i added this paragraph in my previous post:

"regarding my previous post, dont get me wrong, those bits of information that i gave you are from third parties...just like the bits of information who claim the opposite that mohammed did marry a nine-year-old. in today's age, it is so hard for us to reach the ultimate truth about anything actually: because there are so many different voices, so many different versions of a story, and most of all, so many ill-natured people who distort knowledge to their advantages."

thats why it's called a leap of faith. i believe that the benign mohammed who has advocated peace, love, kindness and abstinance from all evil deeds including lust will not go on to marry a nine-year-old in that period where marriage with such an infant is unheard of (think i forgot to mention that in my post. such a marriage with a nine-year-old was unheard of among arabs back then).

why doesnt anyone mention his monogamous relationship with his first wife (who was older than him) for 25 years until her death in a period where poligamy was the most common practice among men? why is his graciousness as a father and husband disregarded? why doesnt anyone mention how noble and merciful he was towards his enemies at war? it is extremely easy to blemish a historical figure from 1500 years ago who has so many stories made up about him that cloud the truth.

i have seen all my life that faith is something that you either have or you dont. i also believe that you can come to a certain kind of faith on your own if you try very hard... but then again, you do need that first impetus to make you take the first step, right?

 

[Antyman]

^ oh that's right, didn't read your second post.

 

[HemeHaci]

why doesnt anyone mention his monogamous relationship with his first wife (who was older than him) for 25 years until her death in a period where poligamy was the most common practice among men? why is his graciousness as a father and husband disregarded? why doesnt anyone mention how noble and merciful he was towards his enemies at war? it is extremely easy to blemish a historical figure from 1500 years ago who has so many stories made up about him that cloud the truth.

Also it is important to note that it is not after 40 people have their sexual lusts at peaks. The older you get your lust slowly dies off. Also it is widely known that most of his marriages are either to adopt widowed women and orphaned children (this was the tradition back then, no big institutions managed by governments for these reasons) and to make a union among tribes to further expand Islam. These were all explained in detail in the link I posted before.

 

[opeth8]

My faith comforts me during tough times. I don't feel the need to justify Christianity in any way.
It's an impossible task considering all the discension within the Christian Kingdom.
I was baptized & raised as Greek Orthodox. I have a deep belief in JC & his teachings.
That being said I wish Christians were more united.
All organized religions are left open to interpretation.
It's the extremists that get under my skin. The Christians are just as guilty as the Jihadist.
Not just in the modern day sense. This has been going on for thousands of years.
What happened to the simpler days of worshiping the sun & praying for rain !
Now we all need something to die for.

 

[Nasty-Fire]

Nasty-Fire: The only perfect thing to say is, for all intents and purposes of learning, forget everything.

Please talk (write) in a way that I can understand what you mean (and that makes sense, please). Talk to me about perfection now.

By the way, I have read the page in the link you displayed. I still don't get where you want to head, but I can't wait to see the rest of it.

 

[Resonator]

I still don't get where you want to head, but I can't wait to see the rest of it.

I plan on changing the face of science when it's done, and I'll be glad to keep that document available to the public for you.

 

[Nasty-Fire]

 

[Reelo]

It's the extremists that get under my skin. The Christians are just as guilty as the Jihadist.
Not just in the modern day sense. This has been going on for thousands of years.

Wise words! There's good people as well as jerks to be found in all religion(s). As far as I'm concerned, people can believe in everything they want to, as long as they don't shove it down my throat by trying to convert me, or exerce influence with the state or the law! Beliefs are personal, and under no circumstance should they have influence over what is taught in school or what gets written in the law.
Other than that, I'm cool...

 

[biggsy]

but of course people should me made aware of the different faiths and a good way to do that is by exploring them in schools

 

[Lateralus14]

I plan on changing the face of science when it's done, and I'll be glad to keep that document available to the public for you.

Well regardless of how intelligent you are, at least you have one hell of an ego.