France Bans Burka/Niqab

[Gustavo_Loureiro]

All we need now is some super fashion designer to make burkas the 'in' thing this season, then France will be kicking herself!

LOL, so true

 

[GarethSE]

Agreeing with Jeff

Aside from that..
Carry on ladies

 

[midget donkeys]

The perfect compromise would be if chicks wore something over their faces but no clothes on the rest of their bodies. Then everybody is happy.

Or least I'd be happy.

 

[El_Gato]

I was saying that, the argument was stupid, not that France is, great job jumping, to conclusions, though!

That comparison is ridiculous and you know it. The burqa, cross, kippah/yarmulke, etc etc etc are all optional, purely aesthetic displays of religion.

Cutting a girls clitoris out against her will is comparable how?

And yes, I am by all means pro-religious freedom. If some piece of legislature in my country was introduced and attempted to outlaw the wearing of a pentagram, cross, star of David, whatever, I'd fight it tooth and nail despite the fact that I am in no way, shape, or form adherent to any religion.

Sorry about that, lol. Those "this is stupid" comments are very confusing and I didn't know if you are saying someone's thoughts are stupid or France law.

The comparison is valid, IMO. There are many women who stick to the tradition of genital mutilation by education or tradition and they keep on doing that. If they don't, there're other women who are doing it to them by forcing them, yes, and they're still women accepting the tradition.

The same with burka. In some countries, if your husband notices you don't wear it, you can get a beat. just because laws allow them to do so. Perhaps, they don't beat them in europe (or yes) but they can kick them out or threaten them in one way or another. At the end, it is male power over women disguised as religion/tradition/whatever that many women accept.

Now your comparison of the pentagram, etc is ridiculous. It's not anything degrading or humilliating for anybody for their sex/genre.

I agree we have to be tolerant but not with those practices are intolerant. I don't agree religious freedom is accepting anything against our ideals of equality. Maybe if it was done only to men, you would see it from another perspective.

 

[MindMunch]

It´s just clothes, what´s the problem. They´re not forcing anyone use them. Is it so offensive to see a person that is not the same as you?

Are they stopping priests to wear black and that white thing on the neck? Stopping nuns to dress that weird hat? Buddists of shaving their heads?

I thought Paris was the place were people invented shit like this

And who the fuck is Sarkozy, a cheating husband, to talk about woman dignity? Seriously, if you´re going to hate muslims and declare war on them, at least have the guts to assume it instead of making excuses.

I´m not saying that labelling it "religion" or "costumes" is a free pass to do whatever you want, but people should wear whatever they feel like.

 

[El_Gato]

It´s just clothes, what´s the problem. They´re not forcing anyone use them. Is it so offensive to see a person that is not the same as you?

Are they stopping priests to wear black and that white thing on the neck? Stopping nuns to dress that weird hat? Buddists of shaving their heads?

And who the fuck is Sarkozy, a cheating husband, to talk about woman dignity? Seriously, if you´re going to hate muslims and declare war on them, at least have the guts to assume it instead of making excuses.

Not offensive to me but for women. What a coincidence they're just women who have to wear that.

Sad we had to be equal, men and women, just thanks to a law and not education in these days.

And not all the muslims do that, just a minority so it's not hate towards the muslims.

 

[midget donkeys]

In the spirit of tolerance and cultural understanding......

[/IMG]

 

[JeffTD]

The comparison is valid, IMO. There are many women who stick to the tradition of genital mutilation by education or tradition and they keep on doing that. If they don't, there're other women who are doing it to them by forcing them, yes, and they're still women accepting the tradition.

The same with burka. In some countries, if your husband notices you don't wear it, you can get a beat. just because laws allow them to do so. Perhaps, they don't beat them in europe (or yes) but they can kick them out or threaten them in one way or another. At the end, it is male power over women disguised as religion/tradition/whatever that many women accept.

Now your comparison of the pentagram, etc is ridiculous. It's not anything degrading or humilliating for anybody for their sex/genre.

I agree we have to be tolerant but not with those practices are intolerant. I don't agree religious freedom is accepting anything against our ideals of equality. Maybe if it was done only to men, you would see it from another perspective.

The male argument is a completely different subject, and so is the brainwashing portion.

What we're dealing with is that some women in France WANT to wear the head coverings, and are now not allowed to. If you can show me some kind of conclusive dataset that says that most women wearing the burqa are brainwashed/forced to wear it against their will, then I'll agree with the law.

I've been watching this piece of legislature in my law classes since it was introduced, and I've not seen anything but hypothesis and random 'real world' examples of specific women who don't want to actually wear it or are brainwashed. Give me something that says those women are the majority and that those situations are the norm - until then, I do, in fact, think that the law is stupid.

 

[MindMunch]

Not offensive to me but for women. What a coincidence they're just women who have to wear that.

They don´t HAVE to, so they should use if they WANT to. It´s like the wedding ring. It´s basically something that means "this one is mine". It´s a sign of submission. Will they ban it too?

 

[26]

in the context of how many rights muslim women usually have within their family:

they have been taught (for generations) it's for their own prevention......just like the east german wall was to prevent the east german citizen from capitalism.

still there are people who want this old system back because they can't handle "freedom".

 

[jipchen]

Someone already said it, but it's worth repeating:
Now the men/families who used to force women to wear it just won't allow them to go outside AT ALL. There are already families where that happens (even without the law) but now it's going to be far worse. Great job!

Instead of fighting the original problem, they made a law to make the mass happy, and actually made everything a lot more difficult for these women.

 

[Moonlight_Seeker]

I simply wonder 1 thing, if all religious symbols are banned in France, are satanic symbols also banned?

 

[26]

painted a little too black, imo.
better to pay for a ticket out of middleage than staying into it.

 

[kvoid]

Fun conversation here and I'm surprised some people have such strong opinions from either side. Since I was raised a muslim (now atheist) and still live in the muslim world, all I gotta say is that I don't like the intent behind this legislative action, but fully support the end result.

The problem with Islam is essentially the same problem with Christianity. As globalism hits it develops some really bizarre and morbid reactionary movements. Let us first understand that the Niqab (burka is the Afghan thingie) has been established by prominent muslim clergy a millenium ago to be an A'da (custom) and not an iba'da (worship). With this in mind, and with the added consideration that most Arabs can trace their lineage back to the Arab peninsula (and Yemen/red sea coast more precisely) back 1400 years or so, the presence of the Niqab in Europe is a perplexing phenomenon, since it is almost entirely absent from the majority of the Arab world (excluding the peninsula from which it originates). This to me is not entirely unlike what I have seen with the puritans in the American south. They dress like weirdos, rarely venture into civilization, hammer out kids/breed into poverty, something in modern capitalism is forcing these people into such a frenzy of death worship (yes i consider christianity islam and judaism to be nothing but), they are somehow excluded, and are resisting integration. And considering what modern culture and capitalism offers, I'm not entirely sure these people are far too different from me. They're just really hoping things will be better when they croak, whereas I know that's game over.

I personally believe it to be an impediment to communication and a security risk. I don't really want to converse with a person whose facial expressions I cannot detect and recognize. I do understand that's precisely what they want. But in the end why am I, a man, denied this pleasure of the right to wear a veil and with it the right to ignore? I'd rock that shit all day and avoid talking to people. I digress however, I've met many a pleasant girl behind the counter of a bank or hospital who wore one of those things and they were genuinely nice people. So yeah in the end, if they want to, why not? But I personally wouldn't mind being able to as well. But even in these parts, should you wrap that headgear over your face, that's probable cause unless you're on a construction site in the middle of a sandstorm...vandalism, hooliganism, theft...bastards...

 

[kvoid]

I forgot however, that Islamophobia is a major feature of European governments and the burgeoning population of retirees that duly vote them into power. It's all gone to shit, these countries and economies you were building granny, from the ashes of ww2. Drugs, porn, crime, homosexuality, corruption...and now the ultimate devil, islam...

 

[~BURNY~]

I simply wonder 1 thing, if all religious symbols are banned in France

They aren't at all in practice. Only places where you really shouldn't wear religious symbols at all are public schools and even then they are tolerated as long as they aren't too visible.
Technically speaking, a teacher could decide you can't take part in a course if they think the way you dress is inappropriate. That could be because of a Slayer shirt or your dick hanging out of your zipper or a burka. Fairly logical if you ask me.


I am personally very fond of the concept of "laïcité" which basically is the opposite of communautarism. It is a strong foundation of french society and I know it's hard to grasp from the outside but it keeps religious matters in the private sphere where it belongs.
Once again, it's not forbidden to wear a kippa or a crucifix or a veil in the streets and it never was.

Now, this new law is a slightly different and very complex issue that is handled in a very hypocritical way, for very wrong reasons imo.

It is also extremely important to keep remininding people that muslim women wearing a burka/nigab are part of a tiny minority in France.

Anyway I won't involve further in the "debate". It always lead to stupidity and oversimplifications.

 

[midget donkeys]

Thanks for your comments kvoid they are very informative, coming from some one with real life experience.

And thanks to Burny for clearing up the displaying of religious symbols in public in France. That sounds a lot more logical.

 

[FIXXXER]

about womand rights...in other countries women
are forced to swallow giant dicks and often almost choke on it.
the whole procedure is filmed and often turned into $.
sure there are always a few sluts who do it for free but
often you can see that the woman are being beaten, almost drowned etc.

if i were a woman, i'd rather walk around dressed up like a ninja than choke on a giant dick...

oh and btw, hit me up if ya wanna buy some DVD's....hahaha, just kidding

ok, seriously, there's always big speech about freedom of expression,
religious freedom and all this bullshit but as soon as anybody or anything
does not fit the conservative perceptions of the so calles "western world"

cheers
S.

 

[FIXXXER]

I forgot however, that Islamophobia is a major feature of European governments and the burgeoning population of retirees that duly vote them into power. It's all gone to shit, these countries and economies you were building granny, from the ashes of ww2. Drugs, porn, crime, homosexuality, corruption...and now the ultimate devil, islam...

THIS!

 

[SocialNumb]

Oh fuck the peoples rights to religious shit. Outright ban all of it until it becomes forgotten in peoples minds, then bring it back and treat it like Greek Mythology.

Yes, fuck your religious rights!