Hails & Horns

[WhiteBeastofWotan]

Probably one of those blokes who makes comments like "Growling is talentless". Whenever someone says something like that to me it usually goes something like this:
Other Person: "Those vocals are talentless."
Me: "Can you do it?"
Other Person: "OORRRARARRGGH *elephant like noise*"
Me: "Exactly."

 

[Novembers Paul]

If you get a few minutes, any chance you could expound a bit? I'm not sure I understand the difference. Thanks.

Zod

Auto tuning is often mistaken for other effects, like a vocoder, or certain chorus effect. While recording, we found a sound we liked using different elements on the clean vocals, and made it consistent on all the songs. There's quite a bit more to it, using multiple layers of vocals (doubling, harmonies, whispers, and other chorus bits) and effects to create a very polished sound. So, I'm just saying what you think you're hearing might not always be the case.

As far as vocal tuning goes, 90% of the professionally recorded CDs these days use some sort of pro tools tuning. The myth of "auto tune" is it will make you sound like Cher in the song "Believe." That's all Vocoder, filtering and mixing, but people INSIST it's an auto tuner. Just an example of an effect that gives you a desired result, that was not tuned.

Anyway, apples and oranges. It's all about the finished result, and people hear it the way they want to hear it.

 

[General Zod]

That was precisely my point from the very start. Thank you.

LOL. Glad I could help.

Auto tuning is often mistaken for other effects, like a vocoder, or certain chorus effect. While recording, we found a sound we liked using different elements on the clean vocals, and made it consistent on all the songs. There's quite a bit more to it, using multiple layers of vocals (doubling, harmonies, whispers, and other chorus bits) and effects to create a very polished sound. So, I'm just saying what you think you're hearing might not always be the case.

As far as vocal tuning goes, 90% of the professionally recorded CDs these days use some sort of pro tools tuning. The myth of "auto tune" is it will make you sound like Cher in the song "Believe." That's all Vocoder, filtering and mixing, but people INSIST it's an auto tuner. Just an example of an effect that gives you a desired result, that was not tuned.

Anyway, apples and oranges. It's all about the finished result, and people hear it the way they want to hear it.

Awesome. Thanks for the details. I'm always curious to understand more about the music I love.

Zod

 

[NvmbrsDoom5]

It's kinda like how people misunderstand the use of drum triggers. "That guy cant really play that fast, he's using triggers". Well actually, you still have to play just as fast, the triggers just gives it a more "even" sound, in case a snare hit here or there isn't quite as loud and clear as others. And many times what you're hearing is a mix of a natural mic'ed sound and the triggers. The triggers just help fill out the sound a bit, but it still takes the same amount of talent to play the drums either way. If you're a sloppy drummer or you have sloppy double-bass, the triggers aren't going to help you any. If anything, the triggers will just make your mistakes that much more noticeable.

There's alot of things people don't get or understand about how music is made and recorded these days. It's best just to appreciate it for what it is and not worry too much about the details anyhow.

 

[AnTz0r]

There's alot of things people don't get or understand about how music is made and recorded these days. It's best just to appreciate it for what it is and not worry too much about the details anyhow.

I think that in metal technical prowess on an instrument is appreciated by listeners very much as compared to most other genres. Come on, we have all those parts in some metal where our jaws just drop a few inches by some crazy guitar run or insane polyrhythmical drum part. in fact, i think it's what inspires so many metal listeners to pick up an instrument themselves (or for some, to give up and put it down )

now if i hear something on record, think, wow, he must have great skills to do that, some of my respect for that music comes from the technicality, the respect for the musical skills. if it then appears that they somehow "cheated" to create that part, i will loose that part of my respect for the music and feel cheated myself.

now as to what is cheating? i don't think drum triggering is, like you explained you still need the chops the line is a bit fuzzy i guess... take drums again for example, and more specifically drum editing. while i am sure most metal bands would edit their drums a bit to make sure all elements are hit at the same time (damn, crash just a millisecond after the rest, poof, protools, gone). this is not a bad thing, it makes my music sound tighter and the band will still be able to reproduce most of it live. now, when there is this pretty crappy drummer in the studio and he can't play the parts if his life depended on it, but they still make it sound good by editing the hell out of it, that's for sure on the wrong side of the line.

so when it comes to this kind of stuff, i will want to know how it was made. but i will grant you most people just don't know enough about to technical process to judge these things, and especially on the internet, start parroting. too bad.

 

[Novembers Paul]

Look at it this way... Protools allows bands like us the ability to release HIGH QUALITY product for a lean budget. If we were to record with EXACT precision, we can very well do that, but it would take many months to record a CD. With the ability to simply edit some minor timing mistakes, saves us massive time and money, so we can focus on making other elements better. There's not a single instrument recorded that hasn't been touched by protools, BUT, everything is 100% us, just highly polished. It's the nature of the beast these days. The technology is there to save the time.

I'll take a polished protools CD over a raw shitty sounding, mistake filled KVLT band ANYDAY.

 

[Will Bozarth]

<3

 

[AnTz0r]

Look at it this way... Protools allows bands like us the ability to release HIGH QUALITY product for a lean budget. If we were to record with EXACT precision, we can very well do that, but it would take many months to record a CD. With the ability to simply edit some minor timing mistakes, saves us massive time and money, so we can focus on making other elements better. There's not a single instrument recorded that hasn't been touched by protools, BUT, everything is 100% us, just highly polished. It's the nature of the beast these days. The technology is there to save the time.

I'll take a polished protools CD over a raw shitty sounding, mistake filled KVLT band ANYDAY.

Me too, but over the first i'd take the great sounding one-take wonders

 

[NvmbrsDoom5]

There are very very very VERY few "one take wonders" in the world.

 

[Pate]

It's kinda like how people misunderstand the use of drum triggers. "That guy cant really play that fast, he's using triggers". Well actually, you still have to play just as fast, the triggers just gives it a more "even" sound, in case a snare hit here or there isn't quite as loud and clear as others. And many times what you're hearing is a mix of a natural mic'ed sound and the triggers. The triggers just help fill out the sound a bit, but it still takes the same amount of talent to play the drums either way. If you're a sloppy drummer or you have sloppy double-bass, the triggers aren't going to help you any. If anything, the triggers will just make your mistakes that much more noticeable.

There's alot of things people don't get or understand about how music is made and recorded these days. It's best just to appreciate it for what it is and not worry too much about the details anyhow.

It really irritates me when people talk incorrectly about triggers.

I always hear "Oh, he has no talent, he's dependent on triggers", which makes no sense at all.

 

[NvmbrsDoom5]

Yep, I hear that all the time too, especially from naysayers online (go figure lol). People who say that basically don't know what they're talking about.

 

[Pate]

I don't think there's any basically in it at all.

 

[Bartek]

i certainly didn't go in with a rage when listening to this so that i could make a mockery of ND, and i truly had no bias to begin with. i've seen this band live twice, i've heard the majority of their records, and i listened to this particular record at least 4 times before reviewing it. although ND has some strong tunes in their catalogue, i think this record is fantastically mediocre and i don't think it holds up, and this is the general concensus of anyone i played it for. i think its a retread. i think it's kind-of-ok, at best. i think the vocals are weak, i think the chug-a-lug riffs are uninspired. true, a descriptive term such as "suck" is weak, but i didn't feel quite like being foofy in my explanations. i felt like cutting through the bullshit for once. and everyone has heard a general comparison such as my dying bride. but what else am i to compare it to? yob? teeth of the lion rules the divine? ahab? would any of that truly fit? the point is to put a description into clear and concise language that the readership will understand. i don't take anything back, not a single line, and i am not dismissing ND's entire body of work. i actually gave it a 3/5 review, but they don't print those. so i stand by my firm belief that this is a kind-of-ok record because knowing ND's capabilities as musicians they could do FAR BETTER. that's how it will be merited years from now when people look back at the bands history, and everyone here knows it. don't make me some kind of scapegoat. put some more effort into your record next time. i'm hardly alone in my opinion on this one...

Dr. Bartek, PHD -- Cryptozoology & Dermatology

Novembers Doom
"The Novella Reservoir" CD

As much of an atmospheric doom-head that I am, I've never much dug November's Doom. First, the singer blows. Just monotone, throaty barf growls with shitty patterns. The singing parts are cool, but more often than not, they are discarded for the boring abrasive parts. This album in particular goes for a harder-hitting sound, but it's mostly chug-a-lug guitar. "Rain" is a boring, placating track that is remarkably average save for the dissonant Opeth-like chorus. The second song "Novella Reservoir" is much better - this drudgy My Dying Bride number. Once again, the growling vocals are boring. The clean, instrumental breaksd are slick, but the actual heavy parts are a retread. And that is the general circumference of this record. Slick prog/clean parts, chug-a-lug retread, predictable vocals. Sometimes it shines, but only when the guitar busts out something remarkable. The highpoint is the more acoustic, harmony drenched "Twilight Innocence." This band is awesome when they get pretty, and mediocre generica when heavy. So shoot me. (RB) Ryan Bartek

 

[Pate]

What a dick.

 

[Novembers Paul]

How can you say you had no bias to begin with, when the review starts out with "I've never much dug November's Doom?"

You know Ryan, It doesn't matter that you dislike the new CD, or even if you feel we phoned it in, and didn't put much effort into the disc. That's your opinion, and you have every right to state your opinion. My problem is with your journalistic choices.

When instantly a review starts out with a slam like "First, the singer blows," I just can't imagine how ANYONE would hire you to write for them. Positive or negative, this review is so poorly written, it's worse then a 9th grade creative writing class. In MY OPINION, reviews like this lessen the quality and integrity of a magazine, and knowing the pages of Hails and Horns include reviews like this, I know I never need to bother to pick it up and read this sort of "journalism." Garbage like this give reputable zines a bad name, and it's a shame more and more of them accept this sort of crap as usable for their print, because Hails and Horns is visually gorgeous. It's not until you get to a lazy review like this, that the magazine instantly loses credibility, and to use your words, I'm hardly alone in my opinion on this one...

It's just lazy. You ask who are you supposed to compare us to? Good journalism doesn't need to resort to the easy way out, and look for a simple caparison. I've read great reviews from talented writers, who never once use another band to draw similarities to. They use their craft to describe what they hear, and not take the cheap and lazy way out.

 

[beast from the east]

For me, the fact that he started out with "the singer blows..." automatically made anything else he had to say irrelevant. I mean, what a professional, mature thing to print! Just another piece of garbage journalism, like Paul said.

 

[Jasonic]

I said it before. This rag needs to fire their editor.

Paul makes a great point about a reviewer not necessarily NEEDING to rely on comparing a band to another band.

Here is the review I had previously written for the album. No reference to MDB or OPETH! WOOT!

The latest offering from Novembers Doom, &#8220;The Novella Reservoir,&#8221; is the perfect continuation from the path of destruction laid from 2005&#8217;s &#8220;The Pale Haunt Departure.&#8221; Once again, the band takes a heavier and more direct approach to their own brand of death / doom metal that is often easily misclassified by listeners.


The disc starts off with the powerful &#8220;Rain&#8221; whose opening lyric of, &#8220;Becoming one with madness, a chaos to embrace&#8221; remains one of my favorite lines of the album. This track is a memorable heavy-hitting opening track, such as was the title track to 2005&#8217;s TPHD.


Next up is the title track to &#8220;The Novella Reservoir.&#8221; This track opens with more of a subtle guitar riff that lets you know you are in for. Tempo-wise, this track reminds me of &#8220;Swallowed By The Moon.&#8221; The highlight of this track would be the dual-vocal delivery of the chorus, which will stick in your head for weeks.


In true Novembers Doom fashion, the more subdued title track is followed by the heavy and pulverizing &#8220;Drown the Inland Mere.&#8221; This track perfectly showcases vocalist Paul Kuhr&#8217;s amazing abilities to switch between clean vocals and growls.


The fourth track is a 100% ballad written about Paul Kuhr&#8217;s daughter entitled &#8220;Twilight Innocence.&#8221; This is the track that some will get and others won&#8217;t. Fans of Novembers Doom are more than aware of how personal the lyrics can get. This is the riskiest and most daring track on the record, especially for this band. Vocally, Kuhr uses his deeper tones in an almost David Gilmore-like style to deliver the goods. This song is sung over a guitar line that is both haunting and beautiful at the same time. This track is the perfect example of what makes Novembers Doom and each new release so special. They never are afraid to take a risk or try something new without straying too far from their base formula.


Fans of 80&#8217;s thrash will love the next track entitled &#8220;The Voice of Failure.&#8221; The track begins with some nice guitar feedback reminiscent of Metallica&#8217;s &#8220;Blackened.&#8221; This goes into a pummeling thrash intro not previously heard on a Novembers Doom record. Drummer Joe Nunez effectively uses double peddling to lead the assault! This track also boasts perfect dual-vocal harmonies in the chorus, which makes for an easy listen.


Another two heavy tracks follow in &#8220;They Were Left to Die&#8221; and &#8220;Dominate the Human Strain&#8221;


The album concludes with an outro song entitled &#8220;Leaving This,&#8221; which is a powerful mid-tempo track about departure. The lyrics ask the listener to &#8220;Mourn not the loss, but the memory.&#8221; This is yet another in the long line of Kuhr&#8217;s lyrics which can be interpreted in various ways.


In summary, &#8220;The Novella Reservoir&#8221; continues to further challenge previous perceptions of Novembers Doom. With each release, new approaches are explored while maintaining the core sound and style of their brand of death / doom. Pre-Orders of this disc came with Paul Kuhr&#8217;s book &#8220;The Wayfaring Chronicles&#8221; which detail the meaning behind the lyrics of each song from each Novembers Doom full-length. I strongly recommend this book to any fan. Novembers Doom have previously never made the same album twice, and I am thankful for that.

 

[BrandonS]

One of the reasons I was canned from UM writing staff was because I didn't make comparisons to other bands that people would recognize. Sometimes it's just what people have to do.

Now that I've basically learned to write with that included... If you hear parts that are similar to parts by other bands, I don't see why you shouldn't point that out, but I must say that I've never heard MDB in ND, and the only time I heard Opeth in there was that acoustic break on Rain. I'd personally put your growls with Dan Swano, not Akerfeldt... A more classic feel of course.

 

[Novembers Paul]

One of the reasons I was canned from UM writing staff was because I didn't make comparisons to other bands that people would recognize. Sometimes it's just what people have to do.

Now that I've basically learned to write with that included... If you hear parts that are similar to parts by other bands, I don't see why you shouldn't point that out, but I must say that I've never heard MDB in ND, and the only time I heard Opeth in there was that acoustic break on Rain. I'd personally put your growls with Dan Swano, not Akerfeldt... A more classic feel of course.

In all honesty, if the comparison is warranted, we don't mind! Most people like that Ryan clown does it out of pure laziness. I'm not saying you should NEVER compare bands, I'm saying a good writer has other things they can use, and not always take the easy route.

If that's really why you got canned as a writer, I'm sorry to hear that, because I for one applaud a review with an explanation of the sound, and not a simple line drawn between two bands. I think the average metal fan is smarter than that, and doesn't need to be hand fed lazy bullshit.

 

[NvmbrsDoom5]

*Sigh* Ok....

Mr. Bartek says, "i certainly didn't go in with a rage when listening to this so that i could make a mockery of ND, and i truly had no bias to begin with."

Your review starts with "....I've never much dug Novembers Doom." That's not considered a bias to begin with??

I think coming up with other words to use besides "suck" doesn't necessarily mean "foofy". What exactly is your definition of foofy anyhow, "Writing in a way that doesn't sound like your average 15 year old"? I'd suggest trying to be a bit foofy next time. In my opinion, of course. When you start off a review with that, do you expect anyone to believe that you're going into the reviewing process with an open mind? If I make it known that I dislike a certain band, do you think they're going to ask me for my opinion on the new album, or put much stock in it?

Again man, you think the album sucks, great, who cares. We get plenty of mail and comments from people saying they love it. So your stance of "everybody here knows this" in defense of your opinion is yet again another example of someone who thinks that their opinion must reflect that of the popular opinion. I didn't take umbrage with the fact that you disliked the record, but with what I deemed to be poor journalism, the shoddy way you wrote your review. You critiqued us, we critiqued you. Simple as that.

"...and everyone has heard a general comparison such as my dying bride. but what else am i to compare it to? yob? teeth of the lion rules the divine? ahab? would any of that truly fit? the point is to put a description into clear and concise language that the readership will understand."

Yob? Ahab?? Let's see, perhaps Edge of Sanity? Swallow The Sun? Daylight Dies? Even the damn Opeth comparison is more viable at this point than MDB. Those bands I just mentioned I feel have far more in common with us stylistically than MDB, except for the fact that Paul's vocals sound like Aaron occasionally.

I've read critical, negatively toned reviews of us in the past where I can at least say that they were well written and you could tell that the writer put a bit of effort into it. This review of yours "sucks". Just as people like yourself are entitled to criticize and make public your opinion on the work we release, we and the other people here at our forum are entitled to do the same about the things you write and release for public consumption. You're not a "scapegoat", we just "cut through the bullshit" and wrote our honest feelings about your writing, as you did about ours. So I guess that's that, really.