Heavy Songs Without Growling?

[Heckelgruber]

What their opinions mean to you and vice versa is irrelevant to the issue at hand. What I'm getting at is that there's no rationale to what you commonly do. It's akin to the endless dog chasing its tail routine.

We have a recurring thread on this forum irrespective of the actual subject of the original post. It goes along the lines of someone's favourite band getting shat on for being tastelessly shallow, followed by one or more people getting hauled into a debate that is completely empty of factual content and inevitably gets a bit personal.

I think one thing MOST people have in common on this forum is that they want a bit more from their music than not just the top 40, but from mainstream rock/metal as well. I think people here want their music to arouse strong feelings, they want it to be produced by music lovers and they don't want to listen to more bland, overproduced commercial crap. Unfortunately, the strong feelings most likely to be aroused by a lot of the mainstream stuff is boredom and contempt.

I think this bleeds into the chat on the forum a bit, because everyone likes a bit of mainstream stuff, but others find it bland and trite.

The reason this bothers me so much is because this 'holier-than-thou' approach to posting really detriments this forum. Even 'by-standers' get sucked into the flurry of verbal combat and before you know it, everything revolves around people flaming each other.

The flame wars bother me too. This forum has a lot of really good people on it who know their music very fucking well, a lot of whom have already opened my eyes to some very interesting bands thatI'd never have heard of had I not started by getting into Opeth. I just hate that whenever there's a danger of getting into some intelligent discussion or debate about music it gets derailed by immature shit. This forum has been like putting my mouth to a firehose of new and interesting bands and I think that's a far more important factor in the forum than yet another poll about which Martin has been the biggest contributor to Opeth.

I just wish that:

- People who got (rightly ) slapped for being into Sum 41 or Dimmu Borgir could just not be such a baby and take their slap - we all like at least one embarrasing band for heaven's sake! I still like Nirvana, I can't help it.

- People could show a bit more restraint in slapping the cretins who say "OMFG DIMMU BORGIR R TEH BOLLOX!" - the fact that they're a moron is self-eveident. Go on, hold it in for the benefit of the thread.

imo

 

[the opeth affinity]

music is music, people are people, ahhhh..fuck it i cant be arsed

 

[daz436]

I think it all boils down to interests.

For instance I'm not a big book reader. The most interesting fiction book I've read is one called 'Speed of Darkness' which was based on the StarCraft universe for god's sake. I'm sure there are a ton of fiction novels out there heaps more insightful, emotionally evocative blah blah, but it would be totally wrong for an intense book reader to criticize my lack of 'good taste' simply because my interests don't lie in books.

It's the same with music. The reason that the top 40 pop shit is so... well, popular, is because people generally listen to music in passing. They don't have the same passion and understanding of music that you, or others may have. I think that's something that you really have to get over. I've honestly always thought the problem has been with the ones that criticize, not the ones that are criticized.

If people want to listen to music for strictly novelty value, then that's entirely their perogative. Attacking them for excercising their own free will only makes the attacker look like the antagonist.

awesome post

 

[Dreadful]

not everyone can agree on anything, granted most people on this forum have the same taste. If you're a big metal and progressive rock fan...green day and nirvana will either suck to you, or will be a guilty pleasure. heh, I actually like the newest Green Day a little.

 

[NFU]

I wasn't going to bother posting, but i quite strongly disagree with you here moonie. Because I think it is on the contrary very apt for an 'intense book reader' to criticize you for reading such, well, drivel. What really is the point in even bringing up and talking about such things if you have nothing more constructive to say than 'it was just novelty enjoyment - i know it's crap'? Im a firm believer in the ability for something to be objectively better than another, and i do not think that you learn or get anywhere by a state of utter aloofness to quality.

If you brought up the subject of reading you could gain many recommendations, you could compare and contrast your own experiences, and you could enrich further experiences - you can discover reading. The same applies to music. Ive argued with nfu plenty - hell, i still love Ayreon - and i find that being forced to defend what i love brings me closer to it, forces me to evaluate and consider what makes it special. Occasionally (eg. Symphony X) thinking harder about music has made me realise it's superficiality; but at the same time has made me branch out towards new music. I say that this is ALWAYS a good thing. The 'passing listener' is someone who is missing out on a rich experience, and i disagree entirely with the idea that they have my approval as of right.

couldn't agree more sir.

 

[Heckelgruber]

...I'm a firm believer in the ability for something to be objectively better than another...

Most people do have that intuition, although I don't think it's easy to justify.

...Occasionally (eg. Symphony X) thinking harder about music has made me realise it's superficiality; but at the same time has made me branch out towards new music. I say that this is ALWAYS a good thing. The 'passing listener' is someone who is missing out on a rich experience, and i disagree entirely with the idea that they have my approval as of right.

I completely agree that it is a pity when someone's musical tastes are easily acquired and rather facile, but is anyone actually suggesting that people should APPROVE of peoples' crap taste simply because they're exercising that prerogative?

 

[the_3_toed_sloth]

- People who got (rightly ) slapped for being into Sum 41 or Dimmu Borgir could just not be such a baby and take their slap - we all like at least one embarrasing band for heaven's sake! I still like Nirvana, I can't help it.

How is Nirvana embarassing? Overrated, sure, but still a band that deserves respect.

I completely agree that it is a pity when someone's musical tastes are easily acquired and rather facile, but is anyone actually suggesting that people should APPROVE of peoples' crap taste simply because they're exercising that prerogative?

Silence can be a form of approval - when you tell someone not to voice their opinion on the dimmu borgirs of the world, you are in effect telling them to give their approval to continued listening.

 

[NFU]

nirvana doesnt belong in this conversation. nobody was talking about nirvana. i beleive it started with metal bands that are devoid of anything deeper than technical ability and/or simplistic entertainment purposes.

 

[Dreadful]

everyone's interest in music varies. You can't insult the hell out of someone for caring less about which rock/pop album they listen to in their car. Not everyone has a huge interest in music like we do. There are 1,000,000 other things people can be passionate about. People think differently...this world would be boring as hell if everyone loved jazz, prog, folk, metal, classical. Some guy could be an airplane pilot, with 3 kids and a wife, who enjoys canoeing, surfing, bike riding and mountain climbing with whatever free time he has, and if you ask him what music he enjoys and he says "uhh...I think a little bit of collective soul, REM, maybe goo goo dolls" and you reply "wow, you have shit taste, you're fucking pathetic, why can't you listen to quality stuff like grobschnitt, mahavishnu orchestra, beethoven, comus and scott walker?"...he simply just dosen't have the care or the time. Respect that. There isn't one taste...people appreciate whatever music that accomodates to whatever their dealing with in life, or whatever mood their in. I do think that if one gets into music passionately...they'll pick a few genres that suit them and become knowledgable of those genres. Whether it's punk rock, ska/disco or noise grind...it's what they connect with, even if it's "crappy."

 

[Don Corleone]

wow everyone gets along quite well
a true precious rare moment on um!

 

[NFU]

i dont tear into doctors who enjoy kyacking. so im afraid i dont follow. i do tear into people like tubbs mcgee who claim music is their end/all be/all also, but only have "omgomg dream theater is best musix eva" as a support statement. i think theres a difference. its not a habit for me to judge every single person i see on their musical interests.

 

[Abhorsen]

going back to nirana, I will always be thankful to them for nothing else than they put all those gay hair bands of the late 80's into their fucking graves.

 

[Don Corleone]

its not a habit for me to judge every single person i see on their musical interests.

well dont you think thats the idea you intrigued on many people's minds here these last few months? dont get me wrong, i enjoy your posts (both musical and off-topic) but since so many people have been complaining about the same thing, i personally feared that it had become a habit of yours.

and the funny thing about it is that i agree with you most of the time on the fast decline of taste on this forum...it's fairly obvious. but most of the time your bitter/anal tone clouded what you were trying to put across so most people concentrated on your approach rather than the juice in your posts.

2 cents from a forum friend, hope that didnt sound pretentious
cheers

 

[NFU]

going back to nirana, I will always be thankful to them for nothing else than they put all those gay hair bands of the late 80's into their fucking graves.

haha.

nirvana wasnt that bad at all truth be known. they just became the spice girls of rock in my eyes, which led to a lot people disliking them for their fanbase and overhype rather than the band itself. not to mention the suicide hoopla and courtney love nonsense doesnt help anything either. besides, a band that covers "the man who sold the world"...and enlists an entire generation from then on into more ignorance from such things is inevitably going to irk me a bit.

 

[OpethNZ]

nirvana had some talent, but yeah their fanbase kinda makes ya wanna ignore the band all together...reminds me alot of another band Tool...

 

[the_3_toed_sloth]

everyone's interest in music varies. You can't insult the hell out of someone for caring less about which rock/pop album they listen to in their car. Not everyone has a huge interest in music like we do. There are 1,000,000 other things people can be passionate about. People think differently...this world would be boring as hell if everyone loved jazz, prog, folk, metal, classical. Some guy could be an airplane pilot, with 3 kids and a wife, who enjoys canoeing, surfing, bike riding and mountain climbing with whatever free time he has, and if you ask him what music he enjoys and he says "uhh...I think a little bit of collective soul, REM, maybe goo goo dolls" and you reply "wow, you have shit taste, you're fucking pathetic, why can't you listen to quality stuff like grobschnitt, mahavishnu orchestra, beethoven, comus and scott walker?"...he simply just dosen't have the care or the time. Respect that. There isn't one taste...people appreciate whatever music that accomodates to whatever their dealing with in life, or whatever mood their in. I do think that if one gets into music passionately...they'll pick a few genres that suit them and become knowledgable of those genres. Whether it's punk rock, ska/disco or noise grind...it's what they connect with, even if it's "crappy."

You do know that you don't have to be an asshole to critically discuss something, right? If what you mentioned happened, i would take the cue to not bother discussing music at all, since the person is obviously uninterested, and we would talk about something else (without burning his tastes).

If however we were talking about, say, albums we've been listening to lately and he said that slipknot's latest has been dominating him, this would probably trigger a completely different conversation. Id mention why i don't like slipknot, and what i prefer to it, along relatively similar lines (eg. metal...i wouldn't bother bringing up folk singer-songwriters from the early 70s, because that has no relevance. Not that i really could anyway, since i know approximately 1), expecting that person not to curl up and whimper softly to himself, but to talk back in defense of slipknot, or about the bands ive mentioned. I can both respect him as a person and deal criticism at the same time against crappy music tastes.

 

[Rocky Raccoon]

Other way around and you'll be correct.

hahahaha yea right...

 

[Rocky Raccoon]

I think its important that If someone thinks that your listening to shit tells you.. I mean how else will you ever progress and grow if you dont get turned onto knew things..
for example from being here a while, I have a fair idea who knows their shit and who does not so when someone like NFU hassles me for liking Bodom, I take it into account. It won't mean I will stop liking them, I will always like them, hell I still listen to Michael Jackson occasionally which I loved when I was like 9 or whatever but what it will mean is I will ask why he thinks they are shit and check out stuff he reckons to be superior thus opening my eyes to new music, coz lets face it, we all love finding new music that kicks ass...

Edit:- Alot of you guys need to stop being such pussies, do you see me having a cry when NFU or whoever hassles Bodom or someone else I like?
Just deal with it! As long they don't personally attack YOU for no reason then I think its fine to say someone elses taste is shit, coz thats all it is TASTE.

 

[NFU]

my issue is almost ways more with the band than the listener. but from experience its rarely effective if i simply say "gee, bodom isnt a very good band in my honest opinion. i do say govena, might you try something a little better, maybe along the lines of a band called Opeth? very well then, spit spot".

doesnt exactly make you jump out of your chair and get in your car to go pickup an opeth record.

now heres my option B...

"What the HELL is wrong with most of you on this forum, all this fucking circus music is enough to make me want to become a serial killer of mallgoth 12 year olds. For god sakes, listen to something SOMEWHAT good even, jesus tap dancing christ!"

yea, now that ive got your attention...which one lit the fire there?

 

[Ermz]

You do know that you don't have to be an asshole to critically discuss something, right?

Exactly. I think that's the underlining statement to most of what I've been trying to say.

I can deal with critique and discussion as such.. I mean, that's the forum is here for. It needs to be done with constructive insight though, without crossing over and becoming an attack on a person's character or the band just for the sake of it.

With my little book scenario, I could deal with someone suggesting to me more worthwhile reading material if I was actually on the market, looking for more reading material. If they were to flat out abuse me and call me inferior simply because my interests don't lie in literary pursuits, then that's just absurd.



By the way, I've just drafted the new and official forum guidelines for this place. We hope to get the support of the Opeth camp and finally get things running more consistently here.