Heavy Songs Without Growling?

[NFU]

"little man". you sure told me.


im the first one to throw in a word. if its negative its because the subject matter in question is garbage. im not going to hype and praise shit band simply for the sake of keeping some sort of ideal hippy community on here you seem to want.

raise the bar, and i wont have anything negative to say will i? the choice isnt up to me, its up to you people.

 

[Metamyr]

What have I done?

 

[Metamyr]

edit: theres critics for every form of art and expression. there are critics for a reason. and there are different levels of creativity...both produced and perceived...for a reason. a 3 year old finger painting isnt of the same quality that a vincent van gogh painting is. argue this all youd like, but it should be pretty obvious. not everyone's brain is wired to appreciate everything the same way either, or on the same level. and i also feel some people have a better understanding for things than others. im not saying im the most qualified...but theres people who can read a fairly easy poem 300 times and never make heads or tails of what its saying. the same can go for music, art, film, literature, etc. some artists are more capable of impressive work than others, and some listeners are more capable of appreciating or at least understanding certain output than others are.

Trapt + Hoobastank = Fingerpainting

 

[Heckelgruber]

ironically, dream theater has the same amount of merits as the backstreet boys. just in a different light.

That's a little inscrutable, can you explain what you mean? In what light?

people just dont want to hear that what they like isnt good...and worse yet, that there is something WRONG with THEM because of what they listen to. its a tough blow to take for most. i never said it was easy or should go over well.

Too true, it never will go over well. Self-image and music taste are too connected, especially if you haven't reached the age where you don't care what other people think.

im not here trying to say i know everything about rocket science. or advanced chemistry. or even that i have a strong grip on the english language. i talk about music. i know about music. im sticking to my guns, and not going to back down anytime soon.

I think that there's a difference between scientific knowledge and musical knowledge - both technical music knowledge and sheer exposure to music. If you know everything there is to know about chemistry then you definitely know more than some random tosser who says "OMG the theory of dephlogisticated air is soooo cool" on the internet and claims to have an equally valid view.

On the other hand, suppose for the sake of argument you know pretty much everything there is to know about music. You can instantly dissect any piece for theory and influences at the first time of listening. What does this entitle you to say about it with authority that a Sum 41 fan does not have? You can say that it's not original (you have heard that progression and melody used many times or whatever), you can say that it's simplistic for various technical reasons but surely all these attributes of music are technical ones.

Where does the technical music appreciation become a perception of what is GOOD and what is not? Your knowledge of chemistry is about what is true and what isn't, but is your knowledge of music about what is good and what isn't?

If you think it is, tell me why. It's an interesting philosophical question.

but i urge people to tell me what i like is shit. please do. please tell me why as well, id love some actual heated music discussion, instead of people just resorting to personality traits than what im actually talking about in the first place. some of you must think i have shit taste in music. dont you?

No! That's the point. However much I might know about music it's my claim that I have no claim to authority about what is good. If you're a realist about value in music, can you explain why?

 

[the_3_toed_sloth]

The Backstreet Boys are talented singers.

 

[metal_wrath]

thats funny. because i was listening to those albums when you were in diapers. subteranean is a natural progression from lunar strain and what was happening in the gothenburg scene at the time. and colony was the natural progression of whoracle and what was going on in the scene at the time. so i dont see how those albums (although decent) are blowing your mind with creativity. when did i say i was above genre defining bands anyway? i dont even know wtf youre talking about with that.

Actually I am older than 30 years, douchebag. I wont even bother responding to the rest of that post.


















































Kidding. I'm much younger than that. Cheers

 

[NFU]

sincerity. honesty. vision. scope. emotion.

these are things i look for in music usually before talent even comes into the picture. if you notice, the bands i typically dislike or "slander" are typically devoid of all of these...or WAY overcompensating in the talent department, and not nearly enough in the sincerity or honesty department.

in other words, when i hear "dragonforce" or "dream theater"...

i dont fucking BELEIVE them...it almost seems like as much of a chore for them to play the material, as it does for me to listen to it. hopefully this makes sense, sometimes its hard to articulate and verbalize these kind of observations in music so that someone can understand where im coming from.

 

[Heckelgruber]

sincerity. honesty. vision. scope. emotion.

these are things i look for in music usually before talent even comes into the picture. if you notice, the bands i typically dislike or "slander" are typically devoid of all of these...or WAY overcompensating in the talent department, and not nearly enough in the sincerity or honesty department.

in other words, when i hear "dragonforce" or "dream theater"...

i dont fucking BELEIVE them...it almost seems like as much of a chore for them to play the material, as it does for me to listen to it. hopefully this makes sense, sometimes its hard to articulate and verbalize these kind of observations in music so that someone can understand where im coming from.

Well Octavarium and Train of Thought mostly sound like someone trying very hard push something out without the aid of Californian prunes. Incidentally I agree about having to "believe" a band to be able to buy into the emotional experience of listening to them. A band also needs to have a kind of integrity, to be excited about music and be the opposite of Lars Ulrich. I'm not that bothered by shred type metal nearly as much a by metalcore, but that's just a personal thing.

I take it you are not going to be drawn on the other questions I put to you...?

 

[Don Corleone]

wow excellent thread! nfu comes undone!
keep on

 

[NFU]

Well Octavarium and Train of Thought mostly sound like someone trying very hard push something out without the aid of Californian prunes. Incidentally I agree about having to "believe" a band to be able to buy into the emotional experience of listening to them. A band also needs to have a kind of integrity, to be excited about music and be the opposite of Lars Ulrich. I'm not that bothered by shred type metal nearly as much a by metalcore, but that's just a personal thing.

I take it you are not going to be drawn on the other questions I put to you...?

Im glad we can see eye to eye a bit on this. im not saying people who listen to music without honesty simply for talent factor due to its impressive nature dont care for honesty or sincerity at all...but to me, thats pretty much a big waste of time for the most part, aside from being an occasional novelty of entertainment when i get bored of everything else. it more boils down to me wondering why that it is simply enough for a lot of people. its like the musical equivelent of people who like to stare at a car wreck aftermath just to see if anyone died, rather than worrying if anyone was hurt, etc. Music has so much to offer...talent.."catchiness" in its most simplest form...these things are pretty trivial in the scheme of why I feel a person should listen to music in the first place.

If you want to just listen to technically impressive and/or happy, catchy shit...then thats your decision...and frankly i pity you. Happiness is but one emotion in the realm of human feelings...and music can and SHOULD evoke a lot more than that...and i feel the listener should desire more than that as well. So to put it plainly...if I tear into you or the band youre listening to next time, instead of asking me why i DONT like them...maybe ask yourself why you DO like them...what are YOU getting out of that band?


sorry if i missed all of your questions directed at me btw...but hopefully the above can somewhat explain everything.

 

[Tubbs]

simple really, I like good bands, while Tubbs for example doesn't

Other way around and you'll be correct.

 

[arzachel]

truer words were never spoken imo.

fixed.

 

[Scourge of Malice]

But NFU, different things (especially in any form of art) affect people differently. A certain band's music might not grab you like say Evoken does, but if someone else sees that same level of emotion in there, I think you should be atleast be able to appreciate what theyre feeling, even if you don't agree.

Edit: And to be fair I shouldn't single you out in this thread, as I would say the same thing to the guy who bashed Sunn.

 

[Tubbs]

I'm a mentally deficient individual!

Dah! Fixed! jnfkjnsdfgjnlksdngfkljnsdfg!

 

[LightningLixxx]

I've gotten REALLY into opeth the past few months, and I absolutely love every album BWP on. I have a lot of friends that sorta like em, but can't get into the growling.

I was actually in pretty much the same position. I would only listen to songs that didn't have growling but I just started to enjoy the music so much the vocals almost subsided. Now I sorta like the growling. It adds an aggression to the music that doesn't hurt one bit.

 

[all_sins_undone]

Im glad we can see eye to eye a bit on this. im not saying people who listen to music without honesty simply for talent factor due to its impressive nature dont care for honesty or sincerity at all...but to me, thats pretty much a big waste of time for the most part, aside from being an occasional novelty of entertainment when i get bored of everything else. it more boils down to me wondering why that it is simply enough for a lot of people. its like the musical equivelent of people who like to stare at a car wreck aftermath just to see if anyone died, rather than worrying if anyone was hurt, etc. Music has so much to offer...talent.."catchiness" in its most simplest form...these things are pretty trivial in the scheme of why I feel a person should listen to music in the first place.

If you want to just listen to technically impressive and/or happy, catchy shit...then thats your decision...and frankly i pity you. Happiness is but one emotion in the realm of human feelings...and music can and SHOULD evoke a lot more than that...and i feel the listener should desire more than that as well. So to put it plainly...if I tear into you or the band youre listening to next time, instead of asking me why i DONT like them...maybe ask yourself why you DO like them...what are YOU getting out of that band?


sorry if i missed all of your questions directed at me btw...but hopefully the above can somewhat explain everything.

wow, if have to say, the thought put into that post overcomes the arrogance you have displayed in previous posts. i have misjudged you. kudos NFU.

 

[NFU]

wow, if have to say, the thought put into that post overcomes the arrogance you have displayed in previous posts. i have misjudged you. kudos NFU.

patience has always been a problem of mine. but im not an unreasonable person.

 

[NFU]

But NFU, different things (especially in any form of art) affect people differently. A certain band's music might not grab you like say Evoken does, but if someone else sees that same level of emotion in there, I think you should be atleast be able to appreciate what theyre feeling, even if you don't agree.

Edit: And to be fair I shouldn't single you out in this thread, as I would say the same thing to the guy who bashed Sunn.

thats definitely true...but im not debating the emotional sincerity of bands in a similar vein to evoken or even opeth, etc. im debating the emotional sincerity of bands like dragonforce...children of bodom...and dream theater. THOSE are the kind of bands i usually judge. that or completely generic and mediocre genre bands. so its not quite the same thing. i know a lot of people are going to be up in arms about dream theater's emotion factor...im NOT saying they dont have any...but i can say with complete confidence, that whatever real passion was behind them on images and words...has definitely left the build a good long time ago.

 

[illidurit]

I saw a guy with a bodom shirt today, wanted to sock him

 

[Seance]

I know this thread has derailed but it's turned into a good discussion regardless, anyway:

Mike Portnoy himself has admitted that the band often writes "stuff that's very technical, and at that point it's dictated by our technical abilities. But then there's other times where we wanna cool it out and really concentrate on the song, and that's when we wanna put the technical side on the shelf and try to really concentrate on the songwriting."

-Mike Portnoy, from wikipedia.org

I was massively huge on Dream Theater some months ago... I think they, like Opeth, are good "gateways" so to speak, to the very wide progressive genre... Opeth will show you the emotion, versatality, and will ease a "metalhead" into appreciate the softer sides of music... whereas Dream Theater is just full of odd time signatures and very complex playing, as well as some cool sections with something following one time signature is on top of something else in another time signature... but after the "wow, that's awesome" of time signatures starts to wear off is when they start to sound like every other metal band... that's basically my personal story anyway, and then reading something like that quote ^ makes me go ... regardless, there are still some DT songs I enjoy