Hey Greeks

[crillemannen]

I think one of the problems, from the start, was that some politicans thought "yeah, let's try this Euro-thing"
but they didn't want to change anything for it-if you get what I mean.
I have a few good friends from Greece (between 16-50) and most of them went to Germany because they
thought it's unstable to live there and lots of things are just strange, like many people building houses, but
not finishing them so they don't have to pay taxes for the houses.
There was an interview for example with a Doc from Greece who said that most of the people who come to
him just pay him in cash, so he doesn't have to bill them, that way he's able to only pay taxes as if he would
earn 800€ per month, but in the end he actually earned between 10-12k € per month, just think about the
dimensions that occur if only 5-10% of the population do something like that (sure, most of them won't earn
10-12k €) for a few years millions and millions weren't spent where they should have been spent.

The dad of a friend of mine (a Greek, too) said that there are alot of people who just think that it's ok to not
pay your taxes as you should, but at the same time they want other countries to help them and as soon as
somebody mentions that they just should pay there taxes and work longer they go crazy.
Sure, not everyone there is like that (probably only a few) but he just told me that the last time he went to
Greece (a few weeks ago) somebody mentioned that it sucks sooo much that he has to work until he's 62
and how cruel that some Germans want them to work even longer-he said that he lives in Germany and has
to work until he's 67 and that it's normal over here (at least to 65)-the other guy was speechless.

To me it sounds like irresponsible bastards that dosen't want to pay the price for their economical wealth. I hate to pay crazy big taxes here in Sweden but i gladly do it because of what i get for my money, free healtcare etc. Everything comes with a price

 

[Jackal_Strain]

To me it sounds like irresponsible bastards that dosen't want to pay the price for their economical wealth. I hate to pay crazy big taxes here in Sweden but i gladly do it because of what i get for my money, free healtcare etc. Everything comes with a price

Exactly. I pay 36% taxes (I'm from Norway btw), but I pay it gladly, knowing that the money is well spent on education, health system, roads, wellfare etc.

I find it funny how scared many americans seems to be of the word "socialism". Norway has been (mostly) run by "socialist" parties since ww2 and we have a system that works extremely well (compared to almost any other country in the world) for almost everyone, and it's sustainable!

 

[LeSedna]

Not to mention socialism as depicted during the communism/socialism era is not comparable to today's socialism. Nowadays, right and left wing aren't SO different. People are just afraid of the term !

 

[Jackal_Strain]

Yup. Socialism today is based on the principle that the resources should be available to everyone, but everyone has to contribute and pay taxes in order for it to work.

 

[Genius Gone Insane]

Bottom line: "European Union" my ass. The EU was built to compete with the United States and it is clearly failing at that. What kind of "union" blatantly fucks over one of its own members? Not our United States. This will never happen here.

 

[JeffTD]

Bottom line: "European Union" my ass. The EU was built to compete with the United States and it is clearly failing at that. What kind of "union" blatantly fucks over one of its own members? Not our United States. This will never happen here.

This is a gross misunderstanding of how/why the EU was formed, how it operates, and what it sets out to achieve.

 

[JeffTD]

I find it funny how scared many americans seems to be of the word "socialism". Norway has been (mostly) run by "socialist" parties since ww2 and we have a system that works extremely well (compared to almost any other country in the world) for almost everyone, and it's sustainable!

Agreed, but it's because we have a fundamental misunderstanding of socialism. Ask any random American on the street (or most politicians, for that matter), and they'll tell you that socialism is a huge government that takes most of the taxpayers income to spend it on social programs and salaries for the government while controlling every aspect of the free market and deciding aspects of peoples personal lives like studies, occupation, place of residence, etc.

 

[Genius Gone Insane]

This is a gross misunderstanding of how/why the EU was formed, how it operates, and what it sets out to achieve.

Not a gross misunderstanding, maybe a slight exaggeration though. The EU was created to compete with the US. That's fact. And they are failing there. That is fact too.

 

[TesticleMilkshake]

Something like this?

To paraphrase Yoda :

"Hanger leads to anger; anger leads to hate; hate leads to suffering."

But, seriously, Glenn Beck sucks. Not as hard as Rush Limbaugh, though.

 

[JeffTD]

Not a gross misunderstanding, maybe a slight exaggeration though. The EU was created to compete with the US. That's fact. And they are failing there. That is fact too.

No, no it wasn't. Not at all. You'd do yourself well to read up on the ECSC, EEC, Maastricht Treaty, and Treaty of Lisbon. You're dead wrong on that assertion.

 

[Genius Gone Insane]

Hmmm. I don't have time to read it right now but it had better be a hell of an article if it is going to convince me that the EU was not designed to compete with the USA.

 

[Jackal_Strain]

Agreed, but it's because we have a fundamental misunderstanding of socialism. Ask any random American on the street (or most politicians, for that matter), and they'll tell you that socialism is a huge government that takes most of the taxpayers income to spend it on social programs and salaries for the government while controlling every aspect of the free market and deciding aspects of peoples personal lives like studies, occupation, place of residence, etc.

I see what you did there...

Hyperbole is an effective tool, but lets assume that what you're saying is true (even though most of your description of socialism as it is practiced today is wildly inaccurate).

Is it really such a bad thing? Having a safety net in society that makes sure that people (except in extreme cases) don't end up like millions of people in your country? Knowing that if you get sick, you don't have to worry about paying the medical bills, but can focus on getting well? Knowing that even if you don't have alot of money, your kids can have a top notch education and really make a good life for themselves?

I'm not even remotely qualified to speak about these matters, so I encourage everyone to read a book called "the spirit level", by Richard Wilkinson. It deals with equality in society, and really showcases how countries that have wildly different living situations between people of various social classes generally have more problems than countries of more equality.
Socialism is actually a tool tat is very effective at generating equality in a society.

 

[Genius Gone Insane]

Well clearly capitalism isn't working the way it used to.

 

[LeSedna]

I see what you did there...

Hyperbole is an effective tool, but lets assume that what you're saying is true (even though most of your description of socialism as it is practiced today is wildly inaccurate).

Is it really such a bad thing? Having a safety net in society that makes sure that people (except in extreme cases) don't end up like millions of people in your country? Knowing that if you get sick, you don't have to worry about paying the medical bills, but can focus on getting well? Knowing that even if you don't have alot of money, your kids can have a top notch education and really make a good life for themselves?

I'm not even remotely qualified to speak about these matters, so I encourage everyone to read a book called "the spirit level", by Richard Wilkinson. It deals with equality in society, and really showcases how countries that have wildly different living situations between people of various social classes generally have more problems than countries of more equality.
Socialism is actually a tool tat is very effective at generating equality in a society.

He was saying that it is what most Americans would say, not that he thinks it in those terms !

 

[crillemannen]

Well clearly capitalism isn't working the way it used to.

Has it really ever worked any good??

US is a good example where capitalism has gone seriously bad. How many % controll like 90% of the total assets in the US? 3% or something like that.
People starving, don't get proper education, lack of social security etc.

 

[Jackal_Strain]

He was saying that it is what most Americans would say, not that he thinks it in those terms !

Well, in that case my arguments are directed against those and not towards Jeff.

 

[ArthurD]

Exactly. I pay 36% taxes (I'm from Norway btw), but I pay it gladly, knowing that the money is well spent on education, health system, roads, wellfare etc.

WOW that tax is so cheap!!! In Brazil I pay 27.5% taxes, and at the source in products: usually: Interest- 15%/25%, Royalties- 15%, Services -15%/25%. There is also some special taxes for industrilized products (that is about 3%).

For exemple, here the Ethanol's price is R$ 2,80 (1,40 USD) each Liter, and taxes are 40,12%. So we pay at the source and yearly for the govern. Also, we can't see how much we are paying of taxes, as the price told they are already included.

Another issue is that our gasoline has 20% of ethanol (law), witch we pay for different taxes here. The oil producer pays, the transport pays (we don't have ferry here. everything is transported by truck, witch pays taxes for workers, and imported machines, etc. Then the gas station pays taxes for the government concession, pays taxes for labor. At the end, our gasoline price is R$ 2,89 (1,42 USD) end taxes included. So, each gallon costs about R$ 11 (5,41 USD).

The problem is: we pretend to have a welfare state here. We pay heavy taxes, but our education is one of the worst in the world (a teacher here earns about 751 dollars, and also has to pay a lot of taxes - witch are discounted directly from sallary and at the source, when you buy products).
The funny part is that our congressman - each one -(we have 594) earns about 192 061.35 US a year.

We have a government website that calculates how much we pay for taxes since 2012, january.
Its about 288 billion dollars.
And we see poverty on streets. People dying on public hospitals. Crappy transportation (bus from the 90's, with bad mantaince).

I live at Brasília, Brasil's capital. The second state with more money on federation. Where the president lives. Just this year we had (just on my city) 283 murders. We have 1 kidnap each 12 hours.
Last year I was Kidnaped.

I'll leave a pic from my town:

Cheers!!!

 

[JeffTD]

I see what you did there...

Hyperbole is an effective tool, but lets assume that what you're saying is true (even though most of your description of socialism as it is practiced today is wildly inaccurate).

Is it really such a bad thing? Having a safety net in society that makes sure that people (except in extreme cases) don't end up like millions of people in your country? Knowing that if you get sick, you don't have to worry about paying the medical bills, but can focus on getting well? Knowing that even if you don't have alot of money, your kids can have a top notch education and really make a good life for themselves?

LeSedna caught it, I was speaking of what most American's think.

It's not a bad thing, at all. I'm actually pretty much totally onboard with a socialist democracy setup for governing a country, I just can't say that in America without shitting on the flag apparently.

 

[JeffTD]

Hmmm. I don't have time to read it right now but it had better be a hell of an article if it is going to convince me that the EU was not designed to compete with the USA.

The European Coal and Steel Community was proposed to prevent further war between France and Germany.

The European Economic Community was established to be an open market between the 6 Euro countries that started it.

The two along with the Euro Atomic Energy Community (same sort of thing, EUROATOM) were merged in 1965 into the European Community.

The Maastricht Treaty created the EU as a three-pillar'd structure with the EC as one pillar and Foreign/Security Policy and Judicial/Criminal Matters as the other two.

The formation of the EU was a long and laborious process - it didn't just pop up overnight and it certainly wasn't done with the intent of competing with the US. You'd even have difficulty arguing that the Euro was designed to compete with the USD.

 

[Jevil]

THIS IS A WAR OF CURRENCY

How did all began?
This economical crisis started in the USA, remember Lehman Brothers? They sold and spread their shit to europe, who had already his own shit. So double shit is real shitty.
European banks and economy was fucked and Euro currency is now weaker and in danger of disappareing and going back to every country's currency. So only few european countries would be stronger in currency than USA.
Divide et impera! (Divide and conquer).

USA Wins. Congrats!