Ideological Relevance of Black Metal

[V.V.V.V.V.]

Hey dude, sometimes I cry in grief, don't be a jerk.

 

[Omni]

I think that black metal's main lyrical themes have always been about rebelling against order and modern society in some form or another. I don't care if a band is Satanic or whatever else.

 

[TheInsane]

I don't see the source of our disagreement outside of your staunch opposition to the terminology that I've employed, and I'm honestly not interested in responding to arguments regarding terminology any more.

You said that before though and still answered so I dont know what to make of it.

Still I think ideology is the wrong word since it does implly something quite more structured than what is common in black metal. To me black metal is a vague idea or even just a feeling trying to be expressed in music. And ideology is so much more concrete. If you do not wish to respond that up to you but I cnt see how you identify the black metal movement more with an ideology than with an idea or even an attitude.

 

[skeptik]

You use a lot of arguments that involve phrases like "to me" or "for me" or "I don't think", reflecting too greatly your own personal tendencies (like ignoring lyrics). You obviously don't seem to think lyrics are important to music in general based on some of your comments, and you certainly indicate that they're not important on a personal level for you either, so I think we should just agree to end this neutrally for now. I'm still going to write that article though, and you can crap on it all you want as long as it's not the same old disagreement on terminology.

 

[TheInsane]

You use a lot of arguments that involve phrases like "to me" or "for me" or "I don't think", reflecting too greatly your own personal tendencies (like ignoring lyrics). You obviously don't seem to think lyrics are important to music in general based on some of your comments, and you certainly indicate that they're not important on a personal level for you either, so I think we should just agree to end this neutrally for now. I'm still going to write that article though, and you can crap on it all you want as long as it's not the same old disagreement on terminology.

You are aboslutely wrong my friend. I always seem to be one of the few for whom lyics actually do matter. Seems like most death/black fans ignore the lyrics. But as much as I appreciate good lyrics (which can help along a song greatly) I still disagree on your use of tereminology and view of black meta as something rooted in one common ideology.

And its interesting that you invite me to critique your article but tells me not to when the main part of where we disagree is terminology.

You still havent said why you prefer the word ideology to the word idea or attitude which I find to be way more fitting to describe black metal lyrics.

 

[skeptik]

Actually I did:

I choose to use the word ideology because it's the most accurate term to describe the concept under discussion, even if it doesn't fit squarely with the general conception of the word that most people recognize. But here is the Oxford English Dictionary entry for the word:

...

2. Ideal or abstract speculation; in a depreciatory sense,
unpractical or visionary theorizing or speculation.

3. = IDEALISM 1. ...

Obviously the definition that we're most used to is number 4, but the word has greater variety than you continue to suggest. My usage of the term is more in line with the second definition. I also use the word ideology because of the connotation that it offers us, namely the idea that one cannot be in direct contrast with an ideology and still be included in that ideology. In other words, the argument is that the core, essential value of black metal, spoken in terms of a negative, can be said to be something like 'non-support of Christian and religious faith, beliefs, practices, morals, and influence'. So no band can be said to play black metal if they demonstrate support for Christianity qua Christianity, for example, but this does not mean that all black metal bands must necessarily demonstrate direct opposition to Christianity.

And I already explained why the terminological dispute is meaningless and irrelevant to the actual argument, because the word as I use it is still used in the way in which I described my usage of it. To take it to mean other than what I say that it means in terms of the way I'm using it within the confines of this discussion to evaluate my argument is akin to seeing a dog named Cat and saying his name is Dog.

 

[TheInsane]

So basically you give yourself the right to redefine words as you wish to fit your own agenda. Oh well... What are words for if not to man about the same thing to a vast number of people? Why redefine a word when there are others which suits the situation better?

 

[Thoth-Amon]

Thrash, heavy, and death metal generally are packed full of energetic riffs. Black metal not so much.

For whatever it's worth I would listen to more black metal if I lived in a colder climate, but something about it being 100 degrees + and living in the sunniest place on the planet does not lend itself to listening to the musical equivalent of a blizzard.

So maybe I should adjust my arguement a little. You could not sing about "fun in the sun", beach party type songs using black metal, since black metal is inherently introspective, and.....

Black metal is not a party.

Not sure what you mean by energetic then since black metal is like 85% tremelo picking and blasting.

 

[HamburgerBoy]

On a different note, if you want to talk about consistency in terms of music, it would be even harder to pinpoint "the sound" of black metal. Venom and Mercyful Fate sound absolutely nothing alike let alone the second wave bands that followed compared to those bands. I would even go as far as to say that second wave, especially the main bands, were pretty musically different from each other. Mayhem, Darkthrone, Immortal, Burzum, Blasphemy, Beherit, etc. had pretty different musical approaches to black metal. It never has been a musically defined genre.

I'm only going to respond to one of these since I've already explained the others on various occasions. The sincerity of ideology is not relevant in terms of music. You can't have a genre spanning a decade with the same ideology and claim that black metal doesn't have a core ideology, plain and simple.

This seems to be a bit of a self-backing argument. You state that black metal is very lyrically based because bands from Venom well into the second-wave were anti-Christian, and then say how all of these anti-Christian bands - being black metal - prove the ideological solidarity of the sub-genre. If you place a relatively low regard on musical identity, with what standard are you judging it? What keeps Slayer, Sepultura, and Morbid Angel out of the black metal frame? One could go much further than the decade you give it.

 

[Manic Ferocity]

They could be considered both. If there are consistant Satanic themes in a band that is death metal in sound, I see no reason why they can't file under both black and death metal.

.

 

[Dak]

Not sure what you mean by energetic then since black metal is like 85% tremelo picking and blasting.

Which generally gives it a droning/buzzing sound, and there is nothing energetic about a drone/buzz.

 

[Einherjar86]

Well, maybe sometimes, but plenty of black metal is brutal and energetic.

 

[Dak]

I also happen to enjoy Bornholm. But most of the black metal I find enjoyable has folk/"viking"/symphonic elements, which are departures from the trve kvltness ov black metal that is getting fellated by certain people in this thread.

 

[HamburgerBoy]

.

My point isn't so much that it's too vague a term, as it is that your definition is arbitrary and circularly reasoned. Mercyful Fate, Bathory, Sodom, and Destruction all left anti-Christian and/or Satanic lyrical themes for at least a portion of their careers, giving a few easy examples of black metal not having lyrical solidarity.