If Mort Divine ruled the world

[Mort Divine]

Expressing hate is not being tolerant.

EDIT: Before you try and catch me in a moment of hypocrisy for "expressing hate" - yes, openly am expressing contempt for TB and his thoughts. They are unacceptable.

 

[Zephyrus]

Toleration =/= limit to freedom of expression. It's a limit to active persecution.

At least, that's how religious toleration works.

 

[Einherjar86]

This entire debate has been coopted and sidetracked by the inane, postmodern, democratic notion of "tolerance."

Tolerance only opens the door to ridiculous contradictions and logical grounds for dismissal. As much as I already despise appeals to the universality of logic, it applies here due to the dynamics of the situation.

"Tolerance" obscures the more important issue here: how value systems are all, at their core, mere social constructions. We should scrap efforts to "tolerate" homosexuality, because "tolerance" is not the problem. As all of us can see, TB clearly "tolerates" homosexuality even if he's willing to kill himself over a homosexual son. The problem, therefore, has nothing to do with "tolerance," which is an action, but with privately held beliefs.

"I'd rather shoot myself than...."
"I hope you die for thinking that"

Looks like TB is being a lot less hateful although maybe not any less absurd.

Correct, which is why tolerance is a load of bullshit; if we actually try and assess this situation, we arrive at a startling fact: Mort's right. Yet he cuts himself off at the knees because of the question of tolerance.

Obviously TB shouldn't be persecuted or imprisoned because of what he says, or what his beliefs are; but it is the case that his set of values, which inform his beliefs on homosexuality (and thereby inform his hypothetical suicidal tendency), derive from a warped sense of propriety and "natural" behavior. We shouldn't care about whether he tolerates homosexuality; we should care about pointing out why he's wrong.

The truth is that heterosexual displays of affection happen all the time and we're fine with it. This has nothing to do with them being "natural" and everything to do with them being conventional. Gays are fighting for their right to be conventional, to put it crudely. Ideally, the hierarchy of convention would disappear entirely; but that will never happen, so there will always be a political firestorm over these issues. Those who wish to stamp out the firestorm are advocating the equivalent of sweeping practices such as homosexuality under the rug (which both TB and aug have been kind enough to come out and say explicitly).

 

[TechnicalBarbarity]

And there it is. I particularly love the irony in your assumption that it would be infinitely more difficult for you to live as the father of a gay man than for a gay man to live as the son of a homophobic father.

Please do try and grow up someday, especially if you decide to have children.

What makes you think i dont have children?

Also, not wanting your son to be gay is homophobic? Really? oh wow ... you have no room to talk about anyone having children after such a moronic statement.

and at @morty: you want acceptance, not tolerance and that's something that will never happen. If i didn't tolerate fagbaskets such as yourself then i'd be knocking out people left and right... that's hate, me not agreeing with you does not equate to the same thing. Anyone that's not on the same page as you is a homophobic misogynist, right? The way you guys lash out at people that dont agree with you is fucking disgusting and shows exactly what you guys are made of.

And also you keep bringing up the "extermination" post. I mean really? You've gotten so soft that hyperbole statements like that are seriously offending you? We both know that i wasn't being serious there .... i think the only person here that wants people dead is you.

And just for the record i dont give a fuck when i see fags walking down the street ... what i do care about is the flamobyant fags who proudly showcase their sexuality in public. I dont want to see two guys kissing and groping each other in front of my kids ... having fag parades in whips and chains and shoving their fucking sexuality down our throats. And just to be clear, when i take my kids out, i dont want them to see anyone behaving like that ... regardless of their sexuality.







........................................





This ones for you again morty .... i'd rather just gather up all the trannies and flamboyant fags and ship you guys off to australia or something.

 

[TechnicalBarbarity]

Mort's right.

we should care about pointing out why he's wrong.

Yes, im wrong for not giving a flying fuck about faggots and not wanting my son to be gay. Please, come back down to earth.

And mort is right, crucify everyone that doesn't like fags and trannies.

 

[Dak]

Why is a privately held dislike for gay buttsexxorz a "problem"? Before anyone answers, I'd like to point out that the basis is going to be some social convention. There seems to be a shortage of leg below the knees in every direction.

 

[Einherjar86]

...

Because there's no grounds for it? And as far as our mutual friend is concerned, he appears to allow it to influence his behavior, which is a problem.

Ultimately, there's no way we can police private thoughts - and I wouldn't want that to be the case. I'm only saying that holding a "private dislike" (which, by the way, is putting it extremely lightly) is more disruptive and damaging than trying to understand how one's values have conditioned one to respond in that way.

You seem to be suggesting that a "private dislike" is somehow a purely natural, socially disenchanted response. That isn't the case. "Disgust" toward homosexuality has nothing to do with a "natural" response to it.

 

[SentinelSlain]

I don't see the point in hating camp men if you're straight, just don't interact with them. It's more aggressively homosexual men that are bothersome.

 

[TechnicalBarbarity]

the gay buttsecks isn't what bothers me(i do think its disgusting though, but to each their own). I just dont like how most of them carry themselves ... like i said, the only fags that bother me are the flamboyant ones.

I don't see the point in hating camp men if you're straight, just don't interact with them. It's more aggressively homosexual men that are bothersome.

this

 

[Einherjar86]

I don't see the point in hating camp men if you're straight, just don't interact with them. It's more aggressively homosexual men that are bothersome.

Any "more aggressively" present person is going to be a nuisance, or even unlikable. We might find that we dislike aggressively heterosexual people! My question is why it is specifically the homosexuality of that person that bothers someone if they don't mind homosexuality in general (i.e. in the abstract)? If aggressively homosexual people bother you because of their homosexuality, then that's a sign...

 

[-CC-]

Ein and Dak have gotten better. This was close to veering into yet another debate over semantics, but it seems we avoided that train wreck...for now.

 

[Mort Divine]

The disliking of aggressive sexuality in general argument is such a load of shit too if you look at the male and female thread. might be online, but it's still a quasi-public display

 

[Matt]

the gay buttsecks isn't what bothers me(i do think its disgusting though, but to each their own). I just dont like how most of them carry themselves ... like i said, the only fags that bother me are the flamboyant ones.



this

So you're saying that you and SS are both bigoted homophobes?

 

[0Marty]

There's too many humans on this planet, so I disagree that we should encourage heteronormativity. If some of us go against the laws of nature, it keeps our numbers down.

We cause overpopulation because we go against the nature, so I'm not sure doing the same to reduce it is a way to go.

You have a point about keeping numbers down, but.. I think majority of homosexual people do not discover homosexuality until adolescence no matter how they were raised so it wouldn't be that big of a difference. I also imagine that some homosexual people want to have kids and they might use sperm donors/surrogates.

I think the nature is eventually gonna find the way to reduce the population, and we're no gonna like it.

 

[Mort Divine]

How do we "go against" nature? And is there really even an overpopulation problem Instead of purely a poor distribution of resources problem?

 

[0Marty]

What the queer and homosexual communities should aim for is getting the equality before the law and safety when publicly expressing themselves. Those thing you can change and I agree that this should be a must.

What they shouldn't ask for is being treated equally in public and private contact with other people. Every community that is somewhat different from "normal" is going through this and mostly their members don't care. So what, someone is pointing at you or laughting at you. Tell them to fuck off and forget it.

How do we "go against" nature? And is there really even an overpopulation problem Instead of purely a poor distribution of resources problem?

Medications, better life conditions. Diseases were keeping the population numbers down, along with food problems etc. Nowadays we can deal with all this so the population grows. And before you say I'm fucking insane, no, I don't wanna go back to 1st century, I'm just explaining.

We consume natural resources faster then they renew. Isn't this sign of overpopulation? Ok, it's not only about population, rising standard of living and especially consumerism are the problem but it goes hand to hand with overpopulation.

 

[Dak]

...

Because there's no grounds for it?

You seem to be suggesting that a "private dislike" is somehow a purely natural, socially disenchanted response. That isn't the case. "Disgust" toward homosexuality has nothing to do with a "natural" response to it.

But there is also no grounds via the convention approach for "not it", not it is merely another social convention. I'm not suggesting any such naturality other than the tendency towards something like a dislike (which has a range from curiosity to hatred) for the "other", whatever that happens to be in relation to the subject. The liberal argument is attempting to reframe no thing as "other" - except those which see an "other". This is where the internal breakdowns begin to occur.

How do we "go against" nature? And is there really even an overpopulation problem Instead of purely a poor distribution of resources problem?

Overpopulation is a real thing in local terms (too many people in a space which can't support them, usually a water problem). Not globally. Furthermore, as I've pointed out multiple times (to others like WAIF), fertility rates are already at or below replacement levels everywhere but some middle eastern countries and in parts of Africa.

 

[Einherjar86]

But there is also no grounds via the convention approach for "not it", not it is merely another social convention. I'm not suggesting any such naturality other than the tendency towards something like a dislike (which has a range from curiosity to hatred) for the "other", whatever that happens to be in relation to the subject.

So you are suggesting that dislike for homosexuality can be natural - that some people just feel disgust toward it. This isn't the case though. Disgust is a conditioned response.

There are grounds for a "not it" approach; it's a form of negative critique. The attitude I'm describing is one that ascribes no value to any kind of performative gender or sexual preference.

The liberal argument is attempting to reframe no thing as "other" - except those which see an "other". This is where the internal breakdowns begin to occur.

Which is why liberals wouldn't approve of the approach I just outlined.

 

[rms]

http://everydayfeminism.com/2014/07/combat-entitlement-in-public/

Anyone know how relevant this site is? Do lots of people actually read this?

 

[HamburgerBoy]

Third-wave feminists or whatever they're called are the worst. I don't think there was one point in that list that didn't have at least one cringeworthy sentence. Homosexual men are so much better.

EDIT: Every article on that website is horrible. I feel like it has to be some kind of parody website.