If Mort Divine ruled the world
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Baroque
Active Member
What? You said "especially when you consider that at least for certain crimes, blacks commit them at a rate roughly 10 times higher. " There is nothing that states this in your links.
HamburgerBoy
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Baroque
Active Member
Even then, 10 times is a gross exaggeration. I'm getting 3.2 times for the overall from your FBI link, but that proportion has decreased in the more recent years listed.
HamburgerBoy
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63% white/13% black = 4.8 times assuming the homicide rates are identical, but it's 53/45 = 1.2, so 4.8*1.2 = 5.7. A bit off yeah, I was probably thinking specifically of gun homicide where the gap is even wider. In any case, the difference is plenty high enough to explain why a cops disproportionately shoot blacks relative to population, even if you don't factor in the scared-white-man component.
Baroque
Active Member
Not sure what you're trying to do mathematically there. You calculated there is a 4.8 to 1 white to black ratio, and you calculated there is a 1.2 to 1 white to black police homicide ratio, but what are you trying to do by multiplying them?
Here's an easier way. 13.2% of the population is black. So of the total police homicides (565) you'd expect .132*565=74.58 of police homicides to be committed by blacks proportionally. But the actual number was 243. 243/74.58=3.25 times the expected number of police homicides by blacks.
Again this proportion was smaller (under 3 times) in the 3 more recent years.
HamburgerBoy
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I was citing homicide in general, not police homicide which closes the gap a little. I'm trying to normalize the proportion of crime committed to the proportion of ethnicity, which I might be doing wrong, but whatevs, the BJS.gov citation in the Wikipedia article gives their math and comes out with blacks committing homicide at a rate 7.6 times higher than whites (over 28 years; the numbers I used for race are based purely on current numbers, which actually undersells the disproportion at which blacks have committed homicide over time), so pretty close.
A three times higher police homicide rate against blacks is basically in line with a three times higher police-killing-black people rate, so I'm not sure that really changes anything.
A three times higher police homicide rate against blacks is basically in line with a three times higher police-killing-black people rate, so I'm not sure that really changes anything.
CiG
Harbinger of Metal
Baroque
Active Member
Obviously you're reading into it what you want to read so you can dismiss it instead of confronting the truth.
CiG
Harbinger of Metal
Dak
mentat
I'm not sure what @Baroque was trying to prove. Merely that blacks have a disproportionate - to their population size relative to the US population - number of encounters with the police, both deadly or otherwise? Well that's a given since they commit a disproportionate amount of crime, particularly violent crime (the kind of crime that would get cops more likely to be trigger happy). This doesn't prove any sort of systemic racism on the part of police, which is a completely different statement than saying "no cops are racist".
Expecting/demanding "proportionality" eg "equality" in any sort of outcomes between very different people or subsets of people is the "hard problem" for SJWs or maybe more accurately the hard problem when trying to get anywhere via reasoning against anything in the SJW platform pantheon.
Expecting/demanding "proportionality" eg "equality" in any sort of outcomes between very different people or subsets of people is the "hard problem" for SJWs or maybe more accurately the hard problem when trying to get anywhere via reasoning against anything in the SJW platform pantheon.
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Baroque
Active Member
You can't prove anything with statistics, either way, I don't know why I bothered trying. But you're lying to yourself if you think there is not a problem with racism in this country. Police included. I'm not a conspiracy theorist saying it's systemic to the core, but I do believe there are far more cops racist against blacks than against whites. This movement didn't start over nothing. We keep seeing examples of why this movement is needed.
Dak
mentat
Since there are overwhelmingly more white cops than black cops, why wouldn't one expect this to be the case, even if the percentage were low?
You don't see white people rioting over unjustified police use of force on whites (yet anyway). What I see in these "movements", as well as many other "movements", are a mix of gullible people and the opportunists that feed them to entrenched interests.
Baroque
Active Member
That doesn't make it okay. It's still a problem that needs to be solved.
What i see is a lot of people not acknowledging there is a problem, or a need for a solution. A lot of people in denial and being dismissive as often as they can to ignore the issues. This violence can't go on forever. We need to fix the source of the problem before it gets worse. That source is racism.
HamburgerBoy
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CiG
Harbinger of Metal
You seem really ignorant about the facts in relation to BLM specifically Baroque, almost every incident that BLM gets behind always turns out to be justified in some way or wrong on the racial prejudice accusations.
They're racebaiting opportunists, plain and simple.
They're racebaiting opportunists, plain and simple.
Funerary_Doom
My head is bloody, but unbowed.
I'm sorry but George Zimmerman is a piece of shit degenerate. People were quick to whip out Alton Sterling's crime list (a bunch of minor crimes aside from sleeping with the 17 y/o but also something that most likely happens quite frequently too but doesn't mean he deserved to die while surrendering), but what about Zimmerman's? He got charged with battery a few times and even sold the gun he used to kill Trayvon for a quarter of a million. He was not a cop and should not have been following this teen in the first place. He got beat up, couldn't handle it, and shot him. That's wrong any way you swing it. He went way too far.
CiG
Harbinger of Metal
That incident was also painted as a white vs black event and used to fuel racial tensions by people, BLM among them. Another reason why they repulse me.
I already see the same thing happening with the Castile incident.
I already see the same thing happening with the Castile incident.
Funerary_Doom
My head is bloody, but unbowed.
George Zimmerman resisted arrest and has a slew of assault, battery charges, and attempted rape from his girlfriend and wife. He also had a record before shooting and murdering Trayvon Martin. Nobody stated that he was a thug or a threat to society.
Why should dangerous people like him be able to take it upon themselves to follow, harass and assault people, ultimately resulting in their death? That's nonsense and a classic example of what's wrong with society if you believe Alton Sterling was a threat (selling illegal bullshit) and not George Zimmermann.
Why should dangerous people like him be able to take it upon themselves to follow, harass and assault people, ultimately resulting in their death? That's nonsense and a classic example of what's wrong with society if you believe Alton Sterling was a threat (selling illegal bullshit) and not George Zimmermann.
Einherjar86
Active Member
Within the confines of any given historical context, the rioters/troublemakers always look this way to those who don't comprehend the purpose for rioting. They said the exact same thing about the suffragettes, and it wasn't as though white British men at the turn of the twentieth century knew they were in the wrong but trying to hide it from all those delicate and hysterical women. They thought they were right, and they fought to keep it that way. To them, women blowing up mailboxes and setting off bombs in front of politicians' homes looked foolhardy and ignorant; but it worked.
And before you accuse me of comparing apples to oranges, the object of protest may not be the same - I fully admit that the "object" of BLM is more abstract than that of the suffrage movement. The social response from those not affected as much by the problem, or who cannot comprehend the problem, is very similar, however. There's a certain social blind spot when it comes to these kinds of very complex social grievances, and while I think there are opportunists who take advantage of it, I also happen to think there are legitimate anxieties and concerns among those protesting.
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