If Mort Divine ruled the world

^yeah wake up sheeple!

speakers from caltech are just "espousing a gee whiz attitude" right

you were totally there at all 200 country's marches for science so you can generalize them all of course
 
^yeah wake up sheeple!

speakers from caltech are just "espousing a gee whiz attitude" right

you were totally there at all 200 country's marches for science so you can generalize them all of course

Speakers maybe not. Attendees, it's certainly plausible. I'd like to point out the author is a highly esteemed emergency medical physician and academic, and is writing for a very left-leaning outlet here. You probably didn't read the whole article. The closing paragraph:

This does not render science deniers correct on any particular topic. Far from it. They indeed remain the primary enemy and are wrong on the issues a staggering majority of the time. But in the long run, the propagation of bad science that feels like good science—and the inability or unwillingness of well-meaning progressives to distinguish it from the truth—only strengthens the hand of the opposition.

This is can be summarized by Daniel Dennett's comment:

“There's nothing I like less than bad arguments for a view I hold dear.”
 
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Speakers maybe not. Attendees, it's certainly plausible. I'd like to point out the author is a highly esteemed emergency medical physician and academic, and is writing for a very left-leaning outlet here. You probably didn't read the whole article. The closing paragraph:



This is can be summarized by Daniel Dennett's comment:

Nah all I see is a guy too cranky and afraid of crowds and big cities who is jealous of more outgoing people who went out and had a good time in celebration of a cause he endorses. "I must be smarter than them for not going though, so I'll find a reason!" "They support my cause but they did it en masse, group think!" Sure go ahead put words in all of the marchers mouths to make them seem dumber than you so you can stay on your psychological high horse, it's very important for psychology majors to maintain this feeling of superiority.

The truth is there were hundreds of brilliant people out there scientists and doctors, and some followers yes, but who cares. Every good movement needs followers.
 
Sure go ahead put words in all of the marchers mouths to make them seem dumber than you so you can stay on your psychological high horse, it's very important for psychology majors to maintain this feeling of superiority.

i did ask you about GMO's and it relates to this quite clearly.

The "science" march is an "ideological" march but for leftist politics, not objective (as humanly possible) science. don't be mad because you got duped on a saturday
 
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Nah all I see is a guy too cranky and afraid of crowds and big cities who is jealous of more outgoing people who went out and had a good time in celebration of a cause he endorses.

If that guy hates big cities and crowds I think he could have found other placed to work and live than San Fran, NY, and now Boston.

The truth is there were hundreds of brilliant people

guiness-brilliant.jpg
 
http://www.politico.com/magazine/st...bubble-real-journalism-jobs-east-coast-215048

Nearly 90 percent of all internet publishing employees work in a county where Clinton won, and 75 percent of them work in a county that she won by more than 30 percentage points. When you add in the shrinking number of newspaper jobs, 72 percent of all internet publishing or newspaper employees work in a county that Clinton won. By this measure, of course, Clinton was the national media’s candidate.


Resist—if you can—the conservative reflex to absorb this data and conclude that the media deliberately twists the news in favor of Democrats. Instead, take it the way a social scientist would take it: The people who report, edit, produce and publish news can’t help being affected—deeply affected—by the environment around them. Former New York Times public editor Daniel Okrent got at this when he analyzed the decidedly liberal bent of his newspaper’s staff in a 2004 column that rewards rereading today. The “heart, mind, and habits” of the Times, he wrote, cannot be divorced from the ethos of the cosmopolitan city where it is produced. On such subjects as abortion, gay rights, gun control and environmental regulation, the Times’ news reporting is a pretty good reflection of its region’s dominant predisposition. And yes, a Times-ian ethos flourishes in all of internet publishing’s major cities—Los Angeles, New York, Boston, Seattle, San Francisco and Washington. The Times thinks of itself as a centrist national newspaper, but it’s more accurate to say its politics are perfectly centered on the slices of America that look and think the most like Manhattan.
 
Science is a movement?

It is now.

You could as easily roll your eyes over the fact that "women's rights" had to be a movement. Movements arise from the way their interests are treated by the political elite. And despite the strong liberal presence in America, right now Trumpish conservatism is the political elite.
 
And despite the strong liberal presence in America, right now Trumpish conservatism is the political elite.

So elite it can barely do anything other than ram a SCJ through the Senate and sign a few EOs, and "Trumpcare" still doesn't look like it attempts to fundamentally fix healthcare, just reduce coverage. Obviously hamfisted way to reduce costs is hamfisted. So far, if I had been a Trump voter, I'd be pretty upset. At this point, avoiding any new wars and potentially getting in an additional good SCJ are probably the best a cynic can hope for.
 
It is now.

You could as easily roll your eyes over the fact that "women's rights" had to be a movement. Movements arise from the way their interests are treated by the political elite. And despite the strong liberal presence in America, right now Trumpish conservatism is the political elite.

Yes but women's rights movements have been a thing since a much darker period for the rights of women, are you suggesting we're in a dark period for science of such similarity and severity that it needs to become a movement? Because that to me sounds more over the top than any of the reasons you often accuse the right of, with being sensationalist or hyperbolic.

Furthermore, I'm sure you would scoff at the idea that the left has created a situation wherein an actual movement for freedom of speech is required, yet I think that has more credibility than the implication about the need for a science movement.
 
I've actually never scoffed at any rightist protest movements--they just don't do that many. But I've never even tried to make the argument that pro-lifers shouldn't be protesting. I wouldn't scoff at a free speech march, but I'd be interested to see what the organizers think "free speech" means.

I know you don't like doing this, but you can't compare your attitude toward science with the attitude you have about women's rights in a contemporary setting. You have to imagine what men like you (and me) probably thought in the late-nineteenth and early-twentieth centuries, when a lot of men felt that women were being "over the top," "sensationalist," and "hyperbolic."

That said, I don't think the state of science is similar to that of women pre-suffrage era; but protesting also shouldn't be restricted to after shit gets really bad.
 
I've actually never scoffed at any rightist protest movements--they just don't do that many.

Marching for freedom of speech wouldn't be a rightist protest movement though, if it existed, which I would say there is more justification for it to exist than a march for science.

I know you don't like doing this

I don't like engaging in thinking exercises? Huh? Lost me there with that implication.

I understand what you're saying, but I'm just not quite sure how it's relevant to science and how the average person thinks about science today.
Are you saying I should think that the march for science is necessary because the average person today feels about science the same way the average man during the suffrage movement felt about women's rights?

That said, I don't think the state of science is similar to that of women pre-suffrage era; but protesting also shouldn't be restricted to after shit gets really bad.

Agreed, and I'm not saying there shouldn't be a march for science, I'm just wondering about the details. Why is there a march, why should there be a march and so on.
 
Marching for freedom of speech wouldn't be a rightist protest movement though, if it existed, which I would say there is more justification for it to exist than a march for science.

I agree. And a march for science shouldn't be a leftist movement either.

I don't like engaging in thinking exercises? Huh? Lost me there with that implication.

Sorry, I'm thinking of past instances where I compare something today to something in the past and you (or maybe it's others, I apologize if so) tend to say that past examples are irrelevant because they're "clearly" different than what we see today. I not only think that's an impossible claim to make, I also think it's questionable to suggest that people at that time didn't have responses similar to the ones we have today when it comes to issues we deem controversial.

In other words, women's right to vote isn't controversial today, and it's clearly different than the dangers faced by, say, science. But it's important to realize that the reactions many people have today to protests for science (e.g. hyperbole, sensationalism, overblown, etc.) were the same kinds of reactions that people had in the early twentieth century when women sought the right to vote.

Are you saying I should think that the march for science is necessary because the average person today feels about science the same way the average man during the suffrage movement felt about women's rights?

I wouldn't say necessary--but warranted, no?

I'm not saying there shouldn't be a march for science, I'm just wondering about the details. Why is there a march, why should there be a march and so on.

Well, I think the primary reason is that Trump is actively taking measures to cut funding in particularly important areas of scientific research. I think we have a cabinet that isn't shy about its skepticism toward scientific research, which isn't based on any philosophical parameters of skepticism (in other words, the kind of skepticism that drives science) but rather on politically and paranoically informed skepticism. Trump has said that climate change is part of a left-wing, or maybe Chinese, plot to exert control over the country.

Trump is a figure who claims to support scientific research and development, but only in strategically narrow margins. He doesn't believe in truly speculative and/or skeptical scientific research, only the kinds of research that come to bear on specific financial interests (such as energy or defense).
 
And a march for science shouldn't be a leftist movement either.

It probably isn't, there likely are many rightists involved, they just won't reveal that they're right-wing in any fashion is probably the case.

Sorry, I'm thinking of past instances where I compare something today to something in the past and you (or maybe it's others, I apologize if so) tend to say that past examples are irrelevant because they're "clearly" different than what we see today.

Yeah I don't think that's me you're thinking of, but if you think of any specific instances I'm happy to concede. Just doesn't seem like me...

In other words, women's right to vote isn't controversial today, and it's clearly different than the dangers faced by, say, science. But it's important to realize that the reactions many people have today to protests for science (e.g. hyperbole, sensationalism, overblown, etc.) were the same kinds of reactions that people had in the early twentieth century when women sought the right to vote.

Well sure, but I would say that's where the similarities end. I find it to be a strange and rather unworkable comparison. The comparable threat science faced was in the past as we all know, when scientists were oppressed as blasphemers and so on, not today because Trump moronically dismisses climate science.

Especially considering the idea that science will most certainly outlive the Trump presidency.

I wouldn't say necessary--but warranted, no?

Well I'm not sure, that's essentially what I'm asking, is it warranted? Promoting science is pretty much as far as I can see, always a positive thing so it's irrelevant either way. All for it in spirit.

Well, I think the primary reason is that Trump is actively taking measures to cut funding in particularly important areas of scientific research. I think we have a cabinet that isn't shy about its skepticism toward scientific research, which isn't based on any philosophical parameters of skepticism (in other words, the kind of skepticism that drives science) but rather on politically and paranoically informed skepticism. Trump has said that climate change is part of a left-wing, or maybe Chinese, plot to exert control over the country.

Trump is a figure who claims to support scientific research and development, but only in strategically narrow margins. He doesn't believe in truly speculative and/or skeptical scientific research, only the kinds of research that come to bear on specific financial interests (such as energy or defense).

Trump is a moron. Though he did say he was going to shrink the government, and cutting the funding of various things is inherent in such a policy plan. But I think these people who are involved in science marches etc go about this all in the wrong way.

The way to get Trump to do what you want is through populism, and so I support people promoting and pushing science en masse as I think that kind of people power will motivate Trump in certain areas, but instead what I see is these movements demonising and attacking Trump as an anti-science type which is fine if all you want is a politically motivated attack movement, but I don't think it will be at all productive.

Attacking a man like that only causes him to double down on his scientific idiocy and this is why I think it's more politically motivated than people would admit and if any rightists are involved, they'll keep it hidden.
 
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Well, a lot of people are angry, myself included. And anger can inspire irrationality. :D It might not be the most effective method, but if it makes Trump cut science spending out of spite, well... then I'm going to start marching to impeach his ass.