Dak
mentat
I don't think Islamic extremism can be fit into left or right wing conceptualizations. It's against western politics entirely.
If Mort Divine ruled the world
- Thread starter Zephyrus
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CiG
Harbinger of Metal
Dak
mentat
No it doesn't. The political structures in pretty much every country at this point mimic European originated structure, except maybe China (off the top of my head). These structures are inherently secular but informed by a Catholic/Christian heritage. From an Islamic extremist point of view, all rotten to the core.
CiG
Harbinger of Metal
Dak
mentat
CiG
Harbinger of Metal
CiG
Harbinger of Metal
http://www.whio.com/news/national/p...is-fat-person-reality/Xf0OghecQzz2uIWQq754xM/
She actually peeked over his shoulder and spied his private texts in order to be offended and be a victim.
Reminds me of when The Hitch said this:
When doctor Samuel Johnson had finished his great lexicography, the first real English dictionary, he was visited by various delegations of people to congratulate him, including a delegation of London's respectable womanhood who came to his parlor in Fleet street and said "doctor we congratulate you on your decision to exclude all indecent words from your dictionary" and he said "ladies I congratulate you on your persistence in looking them up."
If people are determined to be offended, if they will climb up on the ladder, balancing it precariously on their own toilet cistern to be upset by what they see through the neighbour's bathroom window, there's nothing you can do about that.
She actually peeked over his shoulder and spied his private texts in order to be offended and be a victim.
Reminds me of when The Hitch said this:
When doctor Samuel Johnson had finished his great lexicography, the first real English dictionary, he was visited by various delegations of people to congratulate him, including a delegation of London's respectable womanhood who came to his parlor in Fleet street and said "doctor we congratulate you on your decision to exclude all indecent words from your dictionary" and he said "ladies I congratulate you on your persistence in looking them up."
If people are determined to be offended, if they will climb up on the ladder, balancing it precariously on their own toilet cistern to be upset by what they see through the neighbour's bathroom window, there's nothing you can do about that.
Einherjar86
Active Member
BLM aren't violent, you're right--but neither do they frequently deploy violent rhetoric. And I wouldn't condone violence from BLM, or the use of violent rhetoric; but I would sympathize seeing as black men live in perpetual fear of being gunned down by police without apparent just cause.
I think this is hogwash. You think you can drudge up evidence for widespread support of violence on the left? I don't think you can.
You think when Scalise was shot, democrats made excuses for the violence? This is absurd.
There is a legitimate and serious difference between trying to understand the social conditions of violence and justifying violent action. You seem to think that just because people on the left point to alternative causal factors for violence, that means we're justifying violence. That's not the case at all.
I know that Antifa (capital-A) is a predominantly left-wing group. I'm saying that the modern left doesn't have a monopoly on anti-fascism, and that Antifa derives from groups that aren't definitively left-wing, nor is it essential that it remains left-wing. The article I linked made my point. I'll leave it at that.
Everything you mention is the underwhelming and distanced minority. The vast majority of college campuses aren't interested in emulating Berkeley or in encouraging violence against the right. You think it's an epidemic because you're buying into some seriously biased narratives that want to paint the left as an unraveling political network spiraling toward violence.
Really? It feels like you've been here forever...
I won't make any more assumptions like that, it was a spontaneous remark. You're right that you do often make comments criticizing the right.
I still disagree with your wide critique of the left as supporters of violent rhetoric. I'm still honestly not even sure what this means...
If someone supports violent rhetoric, then doesn't that mean that they support violent action? If not, then it must mean that they think there are alternative reasons for violence and/or violent rhetoric. But, as I've said above, I don't think that suggesting alternative reasons for violence and violent rhetoric automatically qualifies as justification for that behavior. I can say that the historical mistreatment of blacks is a causal factor in their cultural situation today, and that it fuels criminal behavior; but that doesn't mean I condone criminal behavior or that blacks shouldn't be held accountable for crime. And I'm not an anomaly in this regard.
rms
Active Member
Einherjar86
Active Member
Not all black men, obviously. But it's true that many do.
Gotta use that inductive reasoning man.
Gotta use that inductive reasoning man.
rms
Active Member
the amount of times you make sensationalist claims for non-whites is ridiculous.
Castile was arrested 54 times and that doesn't even count every meeting with police. He was shot less than 2% of the time. so perpetual
CiG
Harbinger of Metal
I would definitely disagree with that, as well as your sympathies in support of violence or violent rhetoric because black men feel fear.
Also, anecdotal but as someone who has grown up in extreme poverty within minority communities, I highly, highly doubt that black people live in perpetual fear of police, at least nowhere near as much as they live in perpetual fear of gang violence, thieves and so on.
Not that it is in any way a justification for the way Black Lives Matter acts at least half the time, especially since they choose to focus on police related incidents and never do anything for the huge numbers of black people who are victims of intra-community violence.
No I am not doing that, I have no problem with discussing and suggesting alternative causal factors for violence. But I am telling you I have seen with my own eyes multiple instances of leftists and Democrat voters acting apologetic about the attempted massacre, some even downright talking positively about it.
Of course, I understand that a lot of it might be a form of hyperbolic bravery because nobody was killed, I think if someone were killed there would probably be a lot less of it.
Call it absurd all you like, that doesn't cause me to forget what I have seen.
No the link didn't make your point in my view, your position on this seems nonsensical to me.
No dude, I am not saying that these hysterical and illiberal examples represent the desire of the entire left, I am saying that those people doing it are on the left and that is an important piece of information and I am saying that unless we start intellectually combating these people, groups, movements etc it is only going to get worse and worse.
It's a cancer on the left, I don't want the left to rot out and die. I respect the left, I am a liberal myself honestly and if the left rots out and delegitimizes itself, we'll have nothing to stem the tide of race realists, ethno-nationalists, the alt-right and so on.
I think the same thing is happening on the right, Antifa starts a violent protest for example, now we have violent right-wingers reacting and it will keep mounting. I think that is clear from what is happening lately.
We now have the alt-right and it is actually growing in popularity, and fast as shit too, so I just can't respect someone that pretends like the shitty elements on the left aren't growing fast and are a non-issue.
Really? It feels like you've been here forever...
I won't make any more assumptions like that, it was a spontaneous remark. You're right that you do often make comments criticizing the right.
Thanks I appreciate it. It only seems like I'm one-track minded with the left because I think they're the obvious shitheels right now, but lately I am focusing much more on the alt-right. They are terrifying to me, honestly.
I think people who use violent rhetoric are acting emotionally and irrationally for the most part, it's the people who speak deadly seriously about violence that I worry about (Antifa, alt-right, jihadists etc)
Nope, you can assert that but you cannot prove that.
I see hip hop culture and thug glorification playing a larger part in black crime than a history of slavery and Jim Crowe. [shrug]
CiG
Harbinger of Metal
And if you're not worried about increasing violence and acceptance of violence in normal moderate politics, consider that a poll was done showing that around 42% of Republicans were okay with Greg Gianforte bodyslamming that journalist.
Einherjar86
Active Member
Ha, yeah that shit is ridiculous (right-wing violence!!!).
I think they live in fear of that too; but if you read interviews with African Americans, you'll find that many of them admit some level of significant fear when dealing with the police.
Now, there are several factors to remember here: that cops also admit fear when dealing with black men, and that--if we're being honest--whites also admit to some level of concern when dealing with the police (although, as long as we're being honest, most whites don't experience fear for their lives).
The difference between a black suspect (innocent or guilty) and a cop is that the cop's job necessitates these kinds of interactions. I sympathize with police for the jobs they have to do--I couldn't do that shit. But if they can't hack it either, then they shouldn't be cops. I do firmly believe that there are many police officers who shouldn't actually have that job.
For what it's worth, here's an interesting New Yorker piece on the element of fear as experienced by police officers, and it features an interesting insight into the element of racial bias in police shootings...
http://www.newyorker.com/news/benjamin-wallace-wells/police-shootings-race-and-the-fear-defense
Well, the anecdotal aspect is an issue for me. I'm going by things I read, which means it boils down to what the media tells us versus what we've seen with our own eyes. I for one don't believe that the entire media system is crafting a false narrative about black fear. I think it's emerged from confessions and interviews conducted with black men (and women), and from academics who've studied police violence against African Americans.
I'm saying that there's nothing essentially leftist about Antifa (in its current form) or about anti-fascism in general. There's a metaphysical problem with seeing violence committed by leftists and connecting that violence with some kind of inherently violent tendency within leftism.
Okay, but this seems more refined than when you suggested that democrats and leftists are the ones whipping up violence (as though it happens regularly on the left, and as though the right doesn't do it). Sorry for misreading.
Well, in this respect we will most definitely disagree. I don't think hip hop is any more responsible for violence within the black community than metal is for violence within the Scandinavian white community.
I think they live in fear of that too; but if you read interviews with African Americans, you'll find that many of them admit some level of significant fear when dealing with the police.
Now, there are several factors to remember here: that cops also admit fear when dealing with black men, and that--if we're being honest--whites also admit to some level of concern when dealing with the police (although, as long as we're being honest, most whites don't experience fear for their lives).
The difference between a black suspect (innocent or guilty) and a cop is that the cop's job necessitates these kinds of interactions. I sympathize with police for the jobs they have to do--I couldn't do that shit. But if they can't hack it either, then they shouldn't be cops. I do firmly believe that there are many police officers who shouldn't actually have that job.
For what it's worth, here's an interesting New Yorker piece on the element of fear as experienced by police officers, and it features an interesting insight into the element of racial bias in police shootings...
http://www.newyorker.com/news/benjamin-wallace-wells/police-shootings-race-and-the-fear-defense
No I am not doing that, I have no problem with discussing and suggesting alternative causal factors for violence. But I am telling you I have seen with my own eyes multiple instances of leftists and Democrat voters acting apologetic about the attempted massacre, some even downright talking positively about it.
Of course, I understand that a lot of it might be a form of hyperbolic bravery because nobody was killed, I think if someone were killed there would probably be a lot less of it.
Call it absurd all you like, that doesn't cause me to forget what I have seen.
Well, the anecdotal aspect is an issue for me. I'm going by things I read, which means it boils down to what the media tells us versus what we've seen with our own eyes. I for one don't believe that the entire media system is crafting a false narrative about black fear. I think it's emerged from confessions and interviews conducted with black men (and women), and from academics who've studied police violence against African Americans.
I'm saying that there's nothing essentially leftist about Antifa (in its current form) or about anti-fascism in general. There's a metaphysical problem with seeing violence committed by leftists and connecting that violence with some kind of inherently violent tendency within leftism.
Okay, but this seems more refined than when you suggested that democrats and leftists are the ones whipping up violence (as though it happens regularly on the left, and as though the right doesn't do it). Sorry for misreading.
Well, in this respect we will most definitely disagree. I don't think hip hop is any more responsible for violence within the black community than metal is for violence within the Scandinavian white community.
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rms
Active Member
CiG
Harbinger of Metal
Sure, but I think a media narrative plays into this massively, I'm sure you disagree with that though.
I don't know how anybody, assuming you think little of the media view of mine, could attribute the media's narrative on Islam for much of the fear of Muslims (unfounded in many people's opinion) but then dismiss black people's fear of police possibly being due to the media's obsession with blowing police shootings of (most of the time) black criminals or arrest-resisters out of proportion.
Seems like an imbalance in measuring the power of the media.
Add to that basically an entire political wing ceaselessly telling black people that they're victims, they're oppressed, that the bogeyman is out to fuck their lives up, you have a pretty miserable set of boundaries in place for black people to deal with, on top of what actual racism they do deal with.
Unfortunately my mobile device will have a heart attack if I try to open this, but I'll read it later for sure.
Mass fear has existed throughout history and is often not founded in reality, obvious example is mass fear about Jews.
The media cherry picks incidents involving cops and black people and then says, perpetually, that it is a systemic problem, failing to point out that you don't tend to know the name of damn near every single victim of a systemic problem.
If you have a systemic problem of say, insurance companies racially discriminating against blacks, we don't know 98% of all victims' names.
Also, a cynical observation on my part but I see a shitload of bourgeois blacks and others pushing this narrative as well as joining things like BLM and not a lot of lower class blacks and others doing the same.
(Will admit, I am heavily biased against the middle and upper class.)
Genuine question: have you studied Antifa and the history of the movement, collective (or organizations, whatever you want to call it)?
Oh, c'mon...
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Dak
mentat
Einherjar86
Active Member
Victim rhetoric is often thrown about without much consideration, that I'll agree with and say it's something that I've probably come to believe more in recent years.
I don't think that general intellectual sense that informs that rhetoric is inaccurate, I just think the rhetoric augments it (as rhetoric often does).
Mass fear has existed throughout history and is often not founded in reality, obvious examples are mass fear about Jews.
The media cherry picks incidents involving cops and black people and then says, perpetually, that it is a systemic problem, failing to point out that you don't tend to know the name of damn near every single victim of a systemic problem.
If you have a systemic problem of say, insurance companies racially discriminating against blacks, we don't know 98% of all victims' names.
Also, a cynical observation on my part but I see a shitload of bourgeois blacks and others pushing this narrative as well as joining things like BLM and not a lot of lower class blacks and others doing the same.
This is the same problem that Louis Althusser diagnosed decades ago: that the bourgeois produces the means of studying and understanding the circumstances and dynamics of social disparity, but by definition those who then study these circumstances aren't affected by them (or are significantly less affected). On the flip side, those who are significantly affected by them (i.e. the working class) don't have access to the means of studying and understanding them.
It's a conundrum to be sure, but it doesn't mean that those who don't have access to the means wouldn't be swayed by the arguments should they have the time to spend studying them. It just means that it's easier to accept the general attitudes of cultural hegemony.
That's all a lot of Marxist hullabaloo, but I think there is something to the notion of cultural hegemony.
Genuine answer: no.
But I'm inclined to believe that none of that would challenge the point I'm making, which is that you can't essentialize its behavior.
I know, I'm being what rms calls "sensationalist."
But what you'd suggest is that hip hop feeds a violent mentality within black communities while metal doesn't (or does to a lesser extent). In order to do that, you'd have to show a) that music carries more weight than other cultural factors, including history and current social conditions; and b) that African Americans, for some reason, don't understand the content of their music as an aesthetic and symbolic element, but as encouraging real behavior, while metal listeners are able to make this distinction (which would carry an implication that metal listeners are more intelligent than hip hop listeners).
Heavy metal contains a comparable amount of transgressive material, and has been linked in the past to notable instances of violence. If we are saying that music is an important cultural factor, then it makes perfect sense that music of all kinds contributes to behavior.
I don't believe this, of course. While there are isolated examples of people seeming to emulate musical artists, I don't think music should be blamed for cultural behaviors; and I think this holds for metal as well as hip hop.
CiG
Harbinger of Metal
(Just about to sit down and watch a movie, Lisa and the Devil, so I'll get back to you @Einherjar86.)
Dak
mentat
If music is at a minimum, downstream from the rest of culture, then I think that's more indicting of hiphop and pop rather than less.
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