If Mort Divine ruled the world

[Einherjar86]

Ha, yeah that shit is ridiculous (right-wing violence!!!).

I would definitely disagree with that, as well as your sympathies in support of violence or violent rhetoric because black men feel fear.

Also, anecdotal but as someone who has grown up in extreme poverty within minority communities, I highly, highly doubt that black people live in perpetual fear of police, at least nowhere near as much as they live in perpetual fear of gang violence, thieves and so on.

I think they live in fear of that too; but if you read interviews with African Americans, you'll find that many of them admit some level of significant fear when dealing with the police.

Now, there are several factors to remember here: that cops also admit fear when dealing with black men, and that--if we're being honest--whites also admit to some level of concern when dealing with the police (although, as long as we're being honest, most whites don't experience fear for their lives).

The difference between a black suspect (innocent or guilty) and a cop is that the cop's job necessitates these kinds of interactions. I sympathize with police for the jobs they have to do--I couldn't do that shit. But if they can't hack it either, then they shouldn't be cops. I do firmly believe that there are many police officers who shouldn't actually have that job.

For what it's worth, here's an interesting New Yorker piece on the element of fear as experienced by police officers, and it features an interesting insight into the element of racial bias in police shootings...

http://www.newyorker.com/news/benjamin-wallace-wells/police-shootings-race-and-the-fear-defense

No I am not doing that, I have no problem with discussing and suggesting alternative causal factors for violence. But I am telling you I have seen with my own eyes multiple instances of leftists and Democrat voters acting apologetic about the attempted massacre, some even downright talking positively about it.

Of course, I understand that a lot of it might be a form of hyperbolic bravery because nobody was killed, I think if someone were killed there would probably be a lot less of it.

Call it absurd all you like, that doesn't cause me to forget what I have seen.

Well, the anecdotal aspect is an issue for me. I'm going by things I read, which means it boils down to what the media tells us versus what we've seen with our own eyes. I for one don't believe that the entire media system is crafting a false narrative about black fear. I think it's emerged from confessions and interviews conducted with black men (and women), and from academics who've studied police violence against African Americans.

No the link didn't make your point in my view, your position on this seems nonsensical to me.

I'm saying that there's nothing essentially leftist about Antifa (in its current form) or about anti-fascism in general. There's a metaphysical problem with seeing violence committed by leftists and connecting that violence with some kind of inherently violent tendency within leftism.

No dude

, I am not saying that these hysterical and illiberal examples represent the desire of the entire left, I am saying that those people doing it are on the left and that is an important piece of information and I am saying that unless we start intellectually combating these people, groups, movements etc it is only going to get worse and worse.

Okay, but this seems more refined than when you suggested that democrats and leftists are the ones whipping up violence (as though it happens regularly on the left, and as though the right doesn't do it). Sorry for misreading.

I see hip hop culture and thug glorification playing a larger part in black crime than a history of slavery and Jim Crowe. [shrug]

Well, in this respect we will most definitely disagree. I don't think hip hop is any more responsible for violence within the black community than metal is for violence within the Scandinavian white community.

 

[rms]

I don't think hip hop is any more responsible for violence within the black community than metal is for violence within the Scandinavian white community.

so comparable

 

[CiG]

I think they live in fear of that too; but if you read interviews with African Americans, you'll find that many of them admit some level of significant fear when dealing with the police.

Sure, but I think a media narrative plays into this massively, I'm sure you disagree with that though.

I don't know how anybody, assuming you think little of the media view of mine, could attribute the media's narrative on Islam for much of the fear of Muslims (unfounded in many people's opinion) but then dismiss black people's fear of police possibly being due to the media's obsession with blowing police shootings of (most of the time) black criminals or arrest-resisters out of proportion.

Seems like an imbalance in measuring the power of the media.

Add to that basically an entire political wing ceaselessly telling black people that they're victims, they're oppressed, that the bogeyman is out to fuck their lives up, you have a pretty miserable set of boundaries in place for black people to deal with, on top of what actual racism they do deal with.

http://www.newyorker.com/news/benjamin-wallace-wells/police-shootings-race-and-the-fear-defense

Unfortunately my mobile device will have a heart attack if I try to open this, but I'll read it later for sure.

Well, the anecdotal aspect is an issue for me. I'm going by things I read, which means it boils down to what the media tells us versus what we've seen with our own eyes. I for one don't believe that the entire media system is crafting a false narrative about black fear. I think it's emerged from confessions and interviews conducted with black men (and women), and from academics who've studied police violence against African Americans.

Mass fear has existed throughout history and is often not founded in reality, obvious example is mass fear about Jews.

The media cherry picks incidents involving cops and black people and then says, perpetually, that it is a systemic problem, failing to point out that you don't tend to know the name of damn near every single victim of a systemic problem.

If you have a systemic problem of say, insurance companies racially discriminating against blacks, we don't know 98% of all victims' names.

Also, a cynical observation on my part but I see a shitload of bourgeois blacks and others pushing this narrative as well as joining things like BLM and not a lot of lower class blacks and others doing the same.

(Will admit, I am heavily biased against the middle and upper class.)

I'm saying that there's nothing essentially leftist about Antifa (in its current form) or about anti-fascism in general. There's a metaphysical problem with seeing violence committed by leftists and connecting that violence with some kind of inherently violent tendency within leftism.

Genuine question: have you studied Antifa and the history of the movement, collective (or organizations, whatever you want to call it)?

Well, in this respect we will most definitely disagree. I don't think hip hop is any more responsible for violence within the black community than metal is for violence within the Scandinavian white community.

Oh, c'mon...

 

[Dak]

Fascism is leftwing; Leftwing Antifas are incredibly ironic.

 

[Einherjar86]

Add to that basically an entire political wing ceaselessly telling black people that they're victims, they're oppressed, that the bogeyman is out to fuck their lives up, you have a pretty miserable set of boundaries in place for black people to deal with, on top of what actual racism they do deal with.

Victim rhetoric is often thrown about without much consideration, that I'll agree with and say it's something that I've probably come to believe more in recent years.

I don't think that general intellectual sense that informs that rhetoric is inaccurate, I just think the rhetoric augments it (as rhetoric often does).

Mass fear has existed throughout history and is often not founded in reality, obvious examples are mass fear about Jews.

The media cherry picks incidents involving cops and black people and then says, perpetually, that it is a systemic problem, failing to point out that you don't tend to know the name of damn near every single victim of a systemic problem.

If you have a systemic problem of say, insurance companies racially discriminating against blacks, we don't know 98% of all victims' names.

Also, a cynical observation on my part but I see a shitload of bourgeois blacks and others pushing this narrative as well as joining things like BLM and not a lot of lower class blacks and others doing the same.

This is the same problem that Louis Althusser diagnosed decades ago: that the bourgeois produces the means of studying and understanding the circumstances and dynamics of social disparity, but by definition those who then study these circumstances aren't affected by them (or are significantly less affected). On the flip side, those who are significantly affected by them (i.e. the working class) don't have access to the means of studying and understanding them.

It's a conundrum to be sure, but it doesn't mean that those who don't have access to the means wouldn't be swayed by the arguments should they have the time to spend studying them. It just means that it's easier to accept the general attitudes of cultural hegemony.

That's all a lot of Marxist hullabaloo, but I think there is something to the notion of cultural hegemony.

Genuine question: have you studied Antifa and the history of the movement, collective (or organizations, whatever you want to call it)?

Genuine answer: no.

But I'm inclined to believe that none of that would challenge the point I'm making, which is that you can't essentialize its behavior.

Oh, c'mon...

I know, I'm being what rms calls "sensationalist."

But what you'd suggest is that hip hop feeds a violent mentality within black communities while metal doesn't (or does to a lesser extent). In order to do that, you'd have to show a) that music carries more weight than other cultural factors, including history and current social conditions; and b) that African Americans, for some reason, don't understand the content of their music as an aesthetic and symbolic element, but as encouraging real behavior, while metal listeners are able to make this distinction (which would carry an implication that metal listeners are more intelligent than hip hop listeners).

Heavy metal contains a comparable amount of transgressive material, and has been linked in the past to notable instances of violence. If we are saying that music is an important cultural factor, then it makes perfect sense that music of all kinds contributes to behavior.

I don't believe this, of course. While there are isolated examples of people seeming to emulate musical artists, I don't think music should be blamed for cultural behaviors; and I think this holds for metal as well as hip hop.

 

[CiG]

(Just about to sit down and watch a movie, Lisa and the Devil, so I'll get back to you @Einherjar86.)

 

[Dak]

If music is at a minimum, downstream from the rest of culture, then I think that's more indicting of hiphop and pop rather than less.

 

[Einherjar86]

I don't follow that logic, but it might be because I'm not sure how you're using "downstream." Is part of this that hip hop is a more visible social form than metal is?

 

[HamburgerBoy]

I don't believe that hip hop leads to criminal behavior to a level worth noting out of the many many causes, but it is very distinct from metal in that the former is a reflection/embellishment of its culture and the latter an escape from it. There is very little unified metal culture beyond the music itself, aside from maybe some vague anti-authority sentiment and individualism, but many famous hip hop artists were also entrenched in black, criminal culture. That isn't to say white people lack an analogue; we have punk music, which often supports/promotes political violence whether we're talking leftist ANTIFA-compatible shit or skinhead oi, plus general hooliganism and whatnot.

 

[Carpe Mortem]

I think specific lines have to be drawn for one to conclude the music's impact on violence. Dumb people listen to dumb music and do dumb things, because they're followers and retards. Now granted this goes both ways and many ways, but I'll bet the black guy shooting up a gas station in broad daylight for a few hundred bucks is listening to some elementary hoodrat shit, not Tech N9ne or any of the many other intellectuals of the genre. I'd bet the same of any other race. Intelligent people become serial killers and criminal masterminds, not street level felons.

I have absolutely no evidence to support this it just seems logical.

 

[HamburgerBoy]

iirc a lot of sociopaths and successful serial killers/rapists aren't artistically inclined even if they are hedonistic and intelligent, just because they generally have weaker emotional responses to things.

 

[Einherjar86]

I don't believe that hip hop leads to criminal behavior to a level worth noting out of the many many causes, but it is very distinct from metal in that the former is a reflection/embellishment of its culture and the latter an escape from it. There is very little unified metal culture beyond the music itself, aside from maybe some vague anti-authority sentiment and individualism, but many famous hip hop artists were also entrenched in black, criminal culture. That isn't to say white people lack an analogue; we have punk music, which often supports/promotes political violence whether we're talking leftist ANTIFA-compatible shit or skinhead oi, plus general hooliganism and whatnot.

I didn't even think about punk, my mind went right to metal. Punk would be a much better example, actually.

But yeah, I really don't think music is a more significant factor than things like cultural history or current social conditions.

 

[Dak]

I don't follow that logic, but it might be because I'm not sure how you're using "downstream." Is part of this that hip hop is a more visible social form than metal is?

Well there's obviously a reciprocal relationship between the production and consumption of music. But glorification of modern high time preference behaviors in both song and video (probably consumed by hundreds of millions since you brought popularity up) is much more problematic than some odes to ancient warriors and various mythologies or abstract concepts (probably consumed by a few million) - and reflects poorly on both producers and fans. Sure, metal has some limited elements like goregrind, but these are neither imitated by listeners nor popular even with most "metalheads". Conversely, the cornucopia of modern high time preference behaviors glorified in hiphop is pervasive, immensely popular, and extensively marketed/imitated.

Edit: Punk is a better example and is mostly shit for the same reasons.

 

[Mort Divine]

something tells me you're not really qualified to comment on the quality of punk music

 

[Einherjar86]

Well there's obviously a reciprocal relationship between the production and consumption of music. But glorification of modern high time preference behaviors in both song and video (probably consumed by hundreds of millions since you brought popularity up) is much more problematic than some odes to ancient warriors and various mythologies or abstract concepts (probably consumed by a few million) - and reflects poorly on both producers and fans. Sure, metal has some limited elements like goregrind, but these are neither imitated by listeners nor popular even with most "metalheads". Conversely, the cornucopia of modern high time preference behaviors glorified in hiphop is pervasive, immensely popular, and extensively marketed/imitated.

I like how you restrict potential metal examples to goregrind and conveniently ignore all the examples from well-known, if not popularized, death, thrash, and black metal.

But again, it's not worth pointing to metal or punk as major causal factors in criminal behavior, just like it's not worth pointing to hip hop. The criminal behavior that hip hop represents preceded the music itself.

 

[Dak]

I like how you restrict potential metal examples to goregrind and conveniently ignore all the examples from well-known, if not popularized, death, thrash, and black metal.

Can any metal really be called popularized since the 80s? Especially BM. Thrash was the last genre to sort of hit some mainstream appeal and super well known songs like Master of Puppets or Rust in Peace are a protest against global tyranny or at a minimum (for MoP) manipulative relationships, not glorifying high time preference behaviors.

The criminal behavior that hip hop represents preceded the music itself.

Sure, like I said there is a reciprocal relationship. The thug life influenced the hiphop, glorifying itself. Fuck bitches get money popacap. Obviously the literal music alone doesn't "do" anything. But it's an everpresent part of a toxic culture that won't improve simply by cash transfers (if anything cash transfers will encourage the toxicity).

 

[rms]

Can any metal really be called popularized since the 80s? Especially BM. Thrash was the last genre to sort of hit some mainstream appeal and super well known songs like Master of Puppets or Rust in Peace are a protest against global tyranny or at a minimum (for MoP) manipulative relationships, not glorifying high time preference behaviors.

don't think Ein realizes the difference in a ridiculously small minority church burning movement in one country versus the largest pop-culture music in the U.S. that is nearly universally appreciated within one ethnic (racial) group in the U.S. Not sure it's worth going any farther on this point, he even was like "OH YEA PUNK IS A BETTER EXAMPLE"

 

[Dak]

TBF, a lot of dumbass people from ethnic backgrounds have latched onto hiphop as well. "Wigger" is a term that exists for a reason, and it isn't referring to someone getting a PhD.

 

[Dak]

Separate topic: How about CNN getting butthurt about some random shitlord that Trump reposted. Maybe it's because he pointed out the network's extreme lack of diversity in a separate post?

 

[rms]

TBF, a lot of dumbass people from ethnic backgrounds have latched onto hiphop as well. "Wigger" is a term that exists for a reason, and it isn't referring to someone getting a PhD.

yeah, but white-urban violence has never become the harsh reality black urban violence has