If Mort Divine ruled the world

[Einherjar86]

I don't follow that logic, but it might be because I'm not sure how you're using "downstream." Is part of this that hip hop is a more visible social form than metal is?

 

[HamburgerBoy]

I don't believe that hip hop leads to criminal behavior to a level worth noting out of the many many causes, but it is very distinct from metal in that the former is a reflection/embellishment of its culture and the latter an escape from it. There is very little unified metal culture beyond the music itself, aside from maybe some vague anti-authority sentiment and individualism, but many famous hip hop artists were also entrenched in black, criminal culture. That isn't to say white people lack an analogue; we have punk music, which often supports/promotes political violence whether we're talking leftist ANTIFA-compatible shit or skinhead oi, plus general hooliganism and whatnot.

 

[Carpe Mortem]

I think specific lines have to be drawn for one to conclude the music's impact on violence. Dumb people listen to dumb music and do dumb things, because they're followers and retards. Now granted this goes both ways and many ways, but I'll bet the black guy shooting up a gas station in broad daylight for a few hundred bucks is listening to some elementary hoodrat shit, not Tech N9ne or any of the many other intellectuals of the genre. I'd bet the same of any other race. Intelligent people become serial killers and criminal masterminds, not street level felons.

I have absolutely no evidence to support this it just seems logical.

 

[HamburgerBoy]

iirc a lot of sociopaths and successful serial killers/rapists aren't artistically inclined even if they are hedonistic and intelligent, just because they generally have weaker emotional responses to things.

 

[Einherjar86]

I don't believe that hip hop leads to criminal behavior to a level worth noting out of the many many causes, but it is very distinct from metal in that the former is a reflection/embellishment of its culture and the latter an escape from it. There is very little unified metal culture beyond the music itself, aside from maybe some vague anti-authority sentiment and individualism, but many famous hip hop artists were also entrenched in black, criminal culture. That isn't to say white people lack an analogue; we have punk music, which often supports/promotes political violence whether we're talking leftist ANTIFA-compatible shit or skinhead oi, plus general hooliganism and whatnot.

I didn't even think about punk, my mind went right to metal. Punk would be a much better example, actually.

But yeah, I really don't think music is a more significant factor than things like cultural history or current social conditions.

 

[Dak]

I don't follow that logic, but it might be because I'm not sure how you're using "downstream." Is part of this that hip hop is a more visible social form than metal is?

Well there's obviously a reciprocal relationship between the production and consumption of music. But glorification of modern high time preference behaviors in both song and video (probably consumed by hundreds of millions since you brought popularity up) is much more problematic than some odes to ancient warriors and various mythologies or abstract concepts (probably consumed by a few million) - and reflects poorly on both producers and fans. Sure, metal has some limited elements like goregrind, but these are neither imitated by listeners nor popular even with most "metalheads". Conversely, the cornucopia of modern high time preference behaviors glorified in hiphop is pervasive, immensely popular, and extensively marketed/imitated.

Edit: Punk is a better example and is mostly shit for the same reasons.

 

[Mort Divine]

something tells me you're not really qualified to comment on the quality of punk music

 

[Einherjar86]

Well there's obviously a reciprocal relationship between the production and consumption of music. But glorification of modern high time preference behaviors in both song and video (probably consumed by hundreds of millions since you brought popularity up) is much more problematic than some odes to ancient warriors and various mythologies or abstract concepts (probably consumed by a few million) - and reflects poorly on both producers and fans. Sure, metal has some limited elements like goregrind, but these are neither imitated by listeners nor popular even with most "metalheads". Conversely, the cornucopia of modern high time preference behaviors glorified in hiphop is pervasive, immensely popular, and extensively marketed/imitated.

I like how you restrict potential metal examples to goregrind and conveniently ignore all the examples from well-known, if not popularized, death, thrash, and black metal.

But again, it's not worth pointing to metal or punk as major causal factors in criminal behavior, just like it's not worth pointing to hip hop. The criminal behavior that hip hop represents preceded the music itself.

 

[Dak]

I like how you restrict potential metal examples to goregrind and conveniently ignore all the examples from well-known, if not popularized, death, thrash, and black metal.

Can any metal really be called popularized since the 80s? Especially BM. Thrash was the last genre to sort of hit some mainstream appeal and super well known songs like Master of Puppets or Rust in Peace are a protest against global tyranny or at a minimum (for MoP) manipulative relationships, not glorifying high time preference behaviors.

The criminal behavior that hip hop represents preceded the music itself.

Sure, like I said there is a reciprocal relationship. The thug life influenced the hiphop, glorifying itself. Fuck bitches get money popacap. Obviously the literal music alone doesn't "do" anything. But it's an everpresent part of a toxic culture that won't improve simply by cash transfers (if anything cash transfers will encourage the toxicity).

 

[rms]

Can any metal really be called popularized since the 80s? Especially BM. Thrash was the last genre to sort of hit some mainstream appeal and super well known songs like Master of Puppets or Rust in Peace are a protest against global tyranny or at a minimum (for MoP) manipulative relationships, not glorifying high time preference behaviors.

don't think Ein realizes the difference in a ridiculously small minority church burning movement in one country versus the largest pop-culture music in the U.S. that is nearly universally appreciated within one ethnic (racial) group in the U.S. Not sure it's worth going any farther on this point, he even was like "OH YEA PUNK IS A BETTER EXAMPLE"

 

[Dak]

TBF, a lot of dumbass people from ethnic backgrounds have latched onto hiphop as well. "Wigger" is a term that exists for a reason, and it isn't referring to someone getting a PhD.

 

[Dak]

Separate topic: How about CNN getting butthurt about some random shitlord that Trump reposted. Maybe it's because he pointed out the network's extreme lack of diversity in a separate post?

 

[rms]

TBF, a lot of dumbass people from ethnic backgrounds have latched onto hiphop as well. "Wigger" is a term that exists for a reason, and it isn't referring to someone getting a PhD.

yeah, but white-urban violence has never become the harsh reality black urban violence has

 

[Dak]

yeah, but white-urban violence has never become the harsh reality black urban violence has

cuzsystemicracismspongebobmeme.jpg

 

[Einherjar86]

Can any metal really be called popularized since the 80s? Especially BM. Thrash was the last genre to sort of hit some mainstream appeal and super well known songs like Master of Puppets or Rust in Peace are a protest against global tyranny or at a minimum (for MoP) manipulative relationships, not glorifying high time preference behaviors.

Well, some extreme metal has become at least as popular as some of the more excessively violent hip hop, plenty of which isn't as popular as N.W.A. (for example). Hip hop is a wide genre, and there are plenty of obscure acts.

But my argument still stands if we simply supplement punk for metal.

Sure, like I said there is a reciprocal relationship. The thug life influenced the hiphop, glorifying itself. Fuck bitches get money popacap. Obviously the literal music alone doesn't "do" anything. But it's an everpresent part of a toxic culture that won't improve simply by cash transfers (if anything cash transfers will encourage the toxicity).

The most important point is that you won't fix the problems of the African American community by eliminating hip hop, which is the implicit suggestion of saying that hip hop is a bigger influence on behavior than historical treatment and social conditions.

 

[Dak]

Well, some extreme metal has become at least as popular as some of the more excessively violent hip hop, plenty of which isn't as popular as N.W.A. (for example). Hip hop is a wide genre, and there are plenty of obscure acts.

But my argument still stands if we simply supplement punk for metal.

"Real" or even "mainstream" punk never made it as popular as hiphop, which is even taking over pop at this point (at least musically).

The most important point is that you won't fix the problems of the African American community by eliminating hip hop, which is the implicit suggestion of saying that hip hop is a bigger influence on behavior than historical treatment and social conditions.

Well it won't fix it alone but it wouldn't hurt if it were removed either. There would need to be an abdication of all high time preference based behaviors (as virtues), which would need a concerted effort of public and private policy (including new hiphop/pop heroes). The more troubling question is if even these shifts can correct for group low IQ problems (low IQs preferring high time preference due to difficulties with estimating future rewards and sustaining future oriented behaviors).

 

[rms]

The most important point is that you won't fix the problems of the African American community by eliminating hip hop, which is the implicit suggestion of saying that hip hop is a bigger influence on behavior than historical treatment and social conditions.

because why would there be middle ground between "doing no good" and "fixing everything"

 

[Einherjar86]

"Real" or even "mainstream" punk never made it as popular as hiphop, which is even taking over pop at this point (at least musically).

I don't think that's accurate. Not at all.

Well it won't fix it alone but it wouldn't hurt if it were removed either.

because why would there be middle ground between "doing no good" and "fixing everything"

So, the conclusion is that eliminating hip hop would be better for the black community?

That's one of the stupidest things you've ever said, Dak. Not one of the stupidest things rms has said, unfortunately.

 

[Dak]

Yeah, the removal of high time preference glorifying entertainment couldn't possibly be positive

Obviously it's not possible. That's beside the point or rather makes it - again.

 

[rms]

Yeah, the removal of high time preference glorifying entertainment couldn't possibly be positive

Ein is just all over the place