If Mort Divine ruled the world

You're right, that's unfair. What's not unfair is that he extrapolates "cognitive aptitude for computer programming" (my phrase) from purportedly biological/genetic traits.

So quit getting your panties in a bunch you little shit.
 
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Keep trying you virtue signalling pseudo-intellectual hack
 
It's like a firewall flies up at any mention of the concept of inference.

The guy draws on a collection of ambiguous scientific sources (in some cases, entirely uncited) in order to insinuate that women are less suited to tech jobs than men are. The document seems to side with the notion that this suitability reflects generally biological or natural predispositions. Even if there are other factors, the document appears to be an apologetics for an anti-diversity based on the premise that these disparities reflect natural differences. That's an interpretive response to an already fairly transparent document.

I can't help it if you have a problem with me using language that isn't in the actual document. I suppose you also prefer definitions to include the word they're defining.
 
Because our legal doctrine prohibits racial quotas, it is currently impossible to have an honest discussion of these questions. The truth is that, in addition to a holistic review of each applicant that considers race as one factor, colleges undertake some amount of balancing so that they do not end up with a class that is swamped by members of any particular race—or with too many scientists, poets, or dancers, for that matter. But admissions offices cannot admit to efforts at racial balancing or anything that sounds remotely like quotas. Hence, Harvard’s litigation position must attribute the resulting race composition and the percentage of Asians in its class solely to the holistic method, admitting to no racial balancing. This account is plausible if, in fact, despite disproportionately strong academic credentials, Asian applicants are severely less likely than white ones to have the special personal qualities that colleges seek. That is the inevitable implication of Harvard’s position, which would be in line with long-standing perceptions of Asians as indistinguishable from one another. The lawsuit may well entail an inquiry into whether Asian applicants’ non-academic qualifications were disproportionately un-special compared to those of white applicants. (In addition to Harvard submitting comprehensive admissions data for discovery in the case, several competitive high schools with large numbers of Asian students are also being asked to provide information about their students’ applications to Harvard.)

But this lawsuit, and much of the discussion of affirmative action that surrounds it, makes a serious error in assuming that, in order to stop discrimination against Asian applicants, race-conscious affirmative action must end. The argument simply proves too much. Continued use of affirmative action of the kind upheld by the Supreme Court is perfectly compatible with tackling the discrimination at issue. The problem is not race-conscious holistic review; rather, it is the added, sub-rosa deployment of racial balancing in a manner that keeps the number of Asians so artificially low relative to whites who are less strong on academic measures. It is also time to look seriously at the impact on Asians (many of them immigrants or the children of immigrants) of the advantage enjoyed by legacy admissions and wealthy families who are likely to give significant donations. It distorts and confuses the debate to lay the preferential treatment for whites over Asians at the feet of affirmative action—or, on the other side, to deny that Asians are disadvantaged in admissions today.

https://www.newyorker.com/news/news...pJobID=1220915872&spReportId=MTIyMDkxNTg3MgS2
 
It's like a firewall flies up at any mention of the concept of inference.

The guy draws on a collection of ambiguous scientific sources (in some cases, entirely uncited) in order to insinuate that women are less suited to tech jobs than men are. The document seems to side with the notion that this suitability reflects generally biological or natural predispositions. Even if there are other factors, the document appears to be an apologetics for an anti-diversity based on the premise that these disparities reflect natural differences. That's an interpretive response to an already fairly transparent document.

I can't help it if you have a problem with me using language that isn't in the actual document. I suppose you also prefer definitions to include the word they're defining.

"Allow me to infer a lot of stuff from an argument I never read"

I repeat, you are a hack. A vapid worthless fuck that masturbates to his own voice and avoids arguments that involve falsifiability whenever possible. Specifically read the memo, and then quote the parts of it that you believe support your reading of it, and then you'll be worth arguing with.
 
Too easy dude. :rolleyes:

Well lordy lord, what a profound and entirely original argument!!!

If that is genuinely all he has to say, then it's not worth reading his pointless memo.

"He said a thing? I didn't realize that was all he said! Glad I didn't read it!"

100% pseud.
 
If my choices are either controversial or boring, I'll pass. Sorry for being a dick, I shouldn't have started this conversation. It's not at all something I care to read.
 
Ein you are literally one of the most tunnel visioned and bias academics I have ever talked to. Legit mind-blowing how you don't realize this nor your insane reaching at "inference." Have you just given up? So strange

Only thing weird about that memo is where he suddenly starts talking about conservatives , that was out of place.
 
If my choices are either controversial or boring, I'll pass. Sorry for being a dick, I shouldn't have started this conversation. It's not at all something I care to read.

Yeah, who cares about meaning, the meta aesthetics of post-argument deconstruction is the fun part. I won't even consider an argument unless I've never heard it before.
 
Yeah, who cares about meaning, the meta aesthetics of post-argument deconstruction is the fun part. I won't even consider an argument unless I've never heard it before.

Well it does make the whole thing more exciting.

Ein you are literally one of the most tunnel visioned and bias academics I have ever talked to. Legit mind-blowing how you don't realize this nor your insane reaching at "inference." Have you just given up? So strange

You guys need to understand something:

This conversation has nothing to do with my academic profile or commitments. I don't study or publish articles about gender inequality in the workplace, or the biological/genetic differences between men and women, or the role of women in the tech world, etc. etc.

I study literature. My dissertation is on late modernist literature and science fiction and the cybernetic principles at work in both. My two published articles are on narrative form in Peter Watts's fiction and representations of communication in Thomas Pynchon's Gravity's Rainbow.

I'm not an expert on gender differences or disparities. When it comes to topics like the one at hand, I read what most people did--the responses to Damore in the media. Whether or not these are accurate characterizations of the memo, I have no idea. It could be far less incendiary than I'm making it out to be. But I don't consider my arguments about it on this board to be indicative of the kind of research that I do when it comes to my real academic work. I do not perceive the things I say on this board (some of which are probably very misinformed) as part of my academic practice.

And that means that, at HBB says, I occasionally argue about things without having read them. But I'll at least always admit when I haven't done so.

Science-denier. :D

Science is a not a process of discovery, but construction. ;)

EDIT: I'm sorry, but I think you guys may be giving Damore too much credit.

http://www.businessinsider.com/james-damore-diversity-manifesto-science-logical-fallacy-2017-8

I realize that he says biology is only one factor, but he gives it a lot of weight. It's basically the determining factor in his argument.
 
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I actually don't care either way, whether he's wrong or right - I just think it happened in a broader context of ridiculous political correctness and milquetoast censorship. Especially given my doubt that anybody would be fired in a similar situation had the memo addressed men in some way instead of women.

It all just seems like a clusterfuck of virtue, stupidity, outrage, spinelessness and attention seeking.

EDIT: I'm sorry, but I think you guys may be giving Damore too much credit.

http://www.businessinsider.com/james-damore-diversity-manifesto-science-logical-fallacy-2017-8

I realize that he says biology is only one factor, but he gives it a lot of weight. It's basically the determining factor in his argument.

I think his argument reads as more plausible and more importantly provable than the counter-narrative which seems to just be sexism.
 
I'm on my phone so I can't really quote well, but the larger problem is that instead of formulating your own opinion by reading the manifesto, you would rather read excerpts and analysis by those you deem worthy, which is just goofy and opposite of an academic approach.

That business insider article is strange though, since his is the exact opposite of Damore, that culture shapes everything and not a mixture. The faulty logic there is already apparent. The counter with women's work during WW2 (the participation in labor since 1900 is a stupid point) actually strengthens Damores point he makes (off memory): women don't go into STEM because they have the freedom not to, because they value people over things. Sure this idea is also represented culturally, but I would.make the point this is emulated because of biological reasons.
 
I'm on my phone so I can't really quote well, but the larger problem is that instead of formulating your own opinion by reading the manifesto, you would rather read excerpts and analysis by those you deem worthy, which is just goofy and opposite of an academic approach.

Only if I actually cared about the object (i.e. the manifesto) in question.

This is an internet forum. I'm not obliged to any academic standards here.

women don't go into STEM because they have the freedom not to

This would imply that they were forced to go into STEM prior to the women's rights movements, and that they didn't like them, when in fact they were prohibited from these kinds of jobs and, once allowed in, many women found that they did enjoy them.

Basically, the memo suggests (based on my not having read it :D) that the paucity of women STEM in jobs is in keeping with a number of biological traits, and that it's counterproductive to force more women to work through diversity policies. Except that Google is forcing anyone to work. They're simply looking into taking more women applicants.

I think his argument reads as more plausible and more importantly provable than the counter-narrative which seems to just be sexism.

I wouldn't say it's provable necessarily--at least not by our current instruments of measurement. But it is testable, surely, which is what the previous article you cited was saying (i.e. run the experiment, be a scientist about it, etc.).