If Mort Divine ruled the world

None of that disproves anything I've said. As I mentioned, we would likely see a decrease in people entering the medical profession well before we see anything remotely like "slavery," which is the scenario you suggested--at which point it would be much harder to institute something like a "healthcare draft," since there would be so few people to whom it could be applied.

The strawman and fantastical scenario you're imagining is that the right to healthcare would lead to an authoritarian dytopia in which healthcare professionals are somehow forced to work. The far more likely and plausible scenario is that medical professionals leave their field and we stop talking about any "right to healthcare" altogether. The right comes with the opportunity and the applicability. No one talks about a right to healthcare in a society with no doctors.

I can't believe I'm discussing the scenario of doctors being slaves, to be honest.
 
It can’t be done in the US without increasing taxes to 50% give or take, so fuck that
 
The strawman and fantastical scenario you're imagining is that the right to healthcare would lead to an authoritarian dytopia in which healthcare professionals are somehow forced to work. The far more likely and plausible scenario is that medical professionals leave their field and we stop talking about any "right to healthcare" altogether. The right comes with the opportunity and the applicability. No one talks about a right to healthcare in a society with no doctors.

I can't believe I'm discussing the scenario of doctors being slaves, to be honest.

The emboldened scenario is the more likely scenario. I'm not disagreeing there. Which means the entire "right to health-care" idea is a farce from the beginning.
 
I was wondering how long it would take for our token capitalist right-wingers to start crying communism, guess I got my answer. Our government seems to spend an exorbitant amount of money on military action that is supposed to protect the lives and freedoms of its citizens, yet when it comes to actually doing it via healthcare, there is some big problem. What the fuck do we need trained killers who never see combat for when we cant even provide for the sick?

While I admit that my scenario is a rather lofty ideal (I dont think I ever suggested it was easily achievable), I think that there should be at least some oversight by the government that allows healthcare to at the very least be affordable by the vast majority of citizens. I have seen hospitals charge $16 for a fucking band-aid at the ER, because in the past insurance companies were paying for pretty much everything. Drug prices are through the roof for similar reasons. The exploitation of this system (due to the idea that everyone who gets sick wants to get better) has crushed the entire industry, and costs are bloated ridiculously across the board. Doctors are overworked because the schooling is excessive; there has been an ongoing attempt at alleviating this by focusing on the training of "middle-men" such as PAs and Nurse Practitioners.


Are you the staff MD or something?

I said EMS didnt I? Im just a volunteer EMT.

Yes I would rather accept death than ask the government to extort money from some billionaires even if the cost of my treatment would be a drop in a bucket for them.

Ok.
 
I was wondering how long it would take for our token capitalist right-wingers to start crying communism, guess I got my answer. Our government seems to spend an exorbitant amount of money on military action that is supposed to protect the lives and freedoms of its citizens, yet when it comes to actually doing it via healthcare, there is some big problem. What the fuck do we need trained killers who never see combat for when we cant even provide for the sick?

While I admit that my scenario is a rather lofty ideal (I dont think I ever suggested it was easily achievable), I think that there should be at least some oversight by the government that allows healthcare to at the very least be affordable by the vast majority of citizens. I have seen hospitals charge $16 for a fucking band-aid at the ER, because in the past insurance companies were paying for pretty much everything. Drug prices are through the roof for similar reasons. The exploitation of this system (due to the idea that everyone who gets sick wants to get better) has crushed the entire industry, and costs are bloated ridiculously across the board. Doctors are overworked because the schooling is excessive; there has been an ongoing attempt at alleviating this by focusing on the training of "middle-men" such as PAs and Nurse Practitioners.

Healthcare is the most regulated and subsidized thing in this country outside of defense and banking, and the costs reflect this. You're incredibly offbase. Secondarily, doctors are not overworked as doctors because medical school is too hard or lengthy or whatever. That would be medical school/student burnout, a topic I research and an undergraduate thesis on. Doctors are burning out because of being overworked and not able to meet all the demands of their job, and compensation is increasingly getting siphoned to administration to deal with the regulations.
 
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I was wondering how long it would take for our token capitalist right-wingers to start crying communism, guess I got my answer. Our government seems to spend an exorbitant amount of money on military action that is supposed to protect the lives and freedoms of its citizens, yet when it comes to actually doing it via healthcare, there is some big problem. What the fuck do we need trained killers who never see combat for when we cant even provide for the sick?

While I admit that my scenario is a rather lofty ideal (I dont think I ever suggested it was easily achievable), I think that there should be at least some oversight by the government that allows healthcare to at the very least be affordable by the vast majority of citizens. I have seen hospitals charge $16 for a fucking band-aid at the ER, because in the past insurance companies were paying for pretty much everything. Drug prices are through the roof for similar reasons. The exploitation of this system (due to the idea that everyone who gets sick wants to get better) has crushed the entire industry, and costs are bloated ridiculously across the board. Doctors are overworked because the schooling is excessive; there has been an ongoing attempt at alleviating this by focusing on the training of "middle-men" such as PAs and Nurse Practitioners.




I said EMS didnt I? Im just a volunteer EMT.



Ok.
Ways to make healthcare costs go down naturally by themselves without force

1. Remove the government requirement to treat everyone. When you guarantee that someone will be treated and that someone will pay for it, healthcare providers can jack up the costs as high as they want.

2. Allow insurance companies to reject high risk patients. Or allow them to charge high risk patients a lot more than everyone else. Sick people unfairly make insurance more expensive for healthy people so they should be charged more or be rejected.

3. Make it easier to become doctors so there will be more of them and they will compete with each other by lowering their prices.

4. Make the rules for pharmaceutical companies copying each other’s medicines much more relaxed / make patents expire faster so they compete with each other by lowering their prices. Also, make it easier for foreign drugs to be sold in the us.

5. Yes I agree we should massively defund the military and lower taxes across the board for everyone putting more money in our pockets so we can afford our own healthcare.

Health insurance should be affordable but optional depending on your personal condition, and healthcare should be affordable even without insurance for those who don’t need it.

But it should not be universalized to extent of fully curing every penniless homeless bum with cancer, aids, diabetes and tuberculosis while they pay nothing because that will destroy the industry and the economy. I may be ok with a “shitty” version of universal healthcare that gives them a cheap drug that will knock them into a coma and thus make them unaware of the pain til they die.
 
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The emboldened scenario is the more likely scenario. I'm not disagreeing there. Which means the entire "right to health-care" idea is a farce from the beginning.

It's not a farce, it's a conditional possibility. We have the potential to realize it, but it's too bad that the top one percent own forty percent of private wealth in the U.S.

Of course, it's entirely legal and legitimate that they own that wealth, so I'm not complaining about ethics violations. But you're off-base too when you suggest that improving the situation in a more egalitarian way is impossible.
 
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Okay but aren't you in medical school too or something? I'm just confused dude.

Unfortunately no. I was a biochemistry major in college and have been applying to PA schools for the past couple years. In the meantime I decided not to go back to school and am aiming to find a job as a chemist starting next year. Even if I were to be accepted, most PA schools expect you to keep GPAs in excess of 3.5-3.8, of which I am not sure I am willing to risk doing (I graduated with a modest 3.4).

Healthcare is the most regulated and subsidized thing in this country outside of defense and banking, and the costs reflect this. You're incredibly offbase.

You are assuming that I said the lack of government oversight has caused the failure. I am suggesting that the government should still oversee the industry, but that it should be overhauled in a way that isnt so damn corrupt. Obamacare was a farce.

Secondarily, doctors are not overworked as doctors because medical school is too hard or lengthy or whatever. That would be medical school/student burnout, a topic I research and an undergraduate thesis on. Doctors are burning out because of being overworked and not able to meet all the demands of their job, and compensation is increasingly getting siphoned to administration to deal with the regulations.

I was actually implying that there was a shortage of doctors because it takes so damn like to get an MD, so most students go down a different path. I am actually unsure whether this is reality or not, but there are other reasons why people dont want to be doctors (medical malpractice being a major factor from what I know). The utilization of PAs and Nurse Practitioners to pick up the slack has been one thing the medical industry has been focused on for years.

Quite frankly im about done discussing this, as I think enough has been said.

Ways to make healthcare costs go down naturally by themselves without force

1. Remove the government requirement to treat everyone. When you guarantee that someone will be treated and that someone will pay for it, healthcare providers can jack up the costs as high as they want.

Everyone who is sick already wants to be treated. I dont think this would really do anything. Also you cant just kick someone to the curb if they come in dying in an ambulance.

2. Allow insurance companies to reject high risk patients. Or allow them to charge high risk patients a lot more than everyone else. Sick people unfairly make insurance more expensive for healthy people so they should be charged more or be rejected.

Healthy people generally dont need healthcare. Im guessing that you are talking about the pre-existing conditions issue? While what you are saying is true, I really dont like the idea of not treating sick people, which is basically what you are proposing.

3. Make it easier to become doctors so there will be more of them and they will compete with each other by lowering their prices.

What I was saying before, about the medical industry starting to take advantage of "middle-man" positions such as PAs and Nurse Practitioners, is basically this. Lowering the standards required of MDs will just mean more shitty doctors, which is a bad idea.

4. Make the rules for pharmaceutical companies copying each other’s medicines much more relaxed / make patents expire faster so they compete with each other by lowering their prices. Also, make it easier for foreign drugs to be sold in the us.

This sounds like it would discourage research into better drugs, but something does have to be done about the price of drugs. I dont have a solution.

5. Yes I agree we should massively defund the military and lower taxes across the board for everyone putting more money in our pockets so we can afford our own healthcare.

If only this was as easy as it sounds.

Health insurance should be affordable but optional depending on your personal condition, and healthcare should be affordable even without insurance for those who don’t need it.

It is kind of impossible to say you dont need health insurance. You never know when an expensive illness with strike, or whether you will get in a serious car accident that makes you take time off your job while also having to pay for other types of expensive procedures. Otherwise, going to my doc for antibiotics for a sinus infection or some other frivolous thing atm costs me a little under $100 (which is affordable).
 
If a doctor wants to treat a patient who can’t pay, it should come out of his and his nurses’ salaries, or a special fund that the private hospital pools from the salaries of all its doctors for such patients. So the burden is on them, as it should be, and not the taxpayer, who has nothing to do with that transaction. Doctors get paid shitloads in this country anyway.

@EternalMetal DOCTORS took the hippocratic oath, not me! why use MY money to fulfill THEIR (YOUR) oath? put your money where your mouth is and use your own!
 
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You are assuming that I said the lack of government oversight has caused the failure. I am suggesting that the government should still oversee the industry, but that it should be overhauled in a way that isnt so damn corrupt. Obamacare was a farce.

When you say "there should be at least some government oversight", when there is already a shitload of oversight and subsidization, and no one said there should be zero oversight, it sounds like you mean we need more because you think we have little to none. Obviously an overhaul would be helpful, but no governmental overhaul ever goes from a lot to a little, unless maybe in the financial sector because the reasons.

I was actually implying that there was a shortage of doctors because it takes so damn like to get an MD, so most students go down a different path.

I provided a link showing that's not the primary issue.

It's not a farce, it's a conditional possibility. We have the potential to realize it, but it's too bad that the top one percent own forty percent of private wealth in the U.S.

Of course, it's entirely legal and legitimate that they own that wealth, so I'm not complaining about ethics violations. But you're off-base too when you suggest that improving the situation in a more egalitarian way is impossible.

Improved acute (reactionary) healthcare won't stop people from killing themselves with shitty lifestyles. That's the actual problem, at least in the US.
 
Orwell may have been a little off in comparison with Huxley in a war of visions of boot vs drugs, but the man was a keen observer of mankind:

The truth is that, to many people calling themselves Socialists, revolution does not mean a movement of the masses with which they hope to associate themselves; it means a set of reforms which 'we', the clever ones, are going to impose upon 'them', the Lower Orders. On the other hand, it would be a mistake to regard the book-trained Socialist as a bloodless creature entirely incapable of emotion. Though seldom giving much evidence of affection for the exploited, he is perfectly capable of displaying hatred—a sort of queer, theoretical, in vacuo hatred—against the exploiters.

He peered through the looking glass and saw the current year:

In addition to this there is the horrible — the really disquieting — prevalence of cranks wherever Socialists are gathered together. One sometimes gets the impression that the mere words "Socialism" and "Communism" draw towards them with magnetic force every fruit-juice drinker, nudist, sandal-wearer, sex-maniac, Quaker, "Nature Cure" quack, pacifist, and feminist in England.
.........
Sometimes when I listen to these people talking, and still more when I read their books, I get the impression that, to them, the whole Socialist movement is no more than a kind of exciting heresy-hunt — a leaping to and fro of frenzied witch-doctors to the beat of tom-toms and the tune of "Fee fi, fo, fum, I smell the blood of a right-wing deviationist!"
 
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George Orwell was no god-damned anarcho-capitalist/conspiracy theorist. The abuse of his writings by the fringe is truly shameful. You really think he was levying those charges against social democrats? Give me a fucking break. He was as opposed to extreme liberalism as he was totalitarianism.
 
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Orwell may have been a little off in comparison with Huxley in a war of visions of boot vs drugs, but the man was a keen observer of mankind:

He peered through the looking glass and saw the current year:

You do realize what he's saying here, yes? He's not suggesting that socialism actually corresponds to this reductive vision; he's saying that certain writings about socialism paint it this way.

Orwell actually believed in socialist policies, and The Road to Wigan Pier is in part a defense of socialism. He's suggesting that one reason why so many people oppose socialism is the way it's often represented.
 
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George Orwell was no god-damned anarcho-capitalist/conspiracy theorist. The abuse of his writings by the fringe is truly shameful. You really think he was levying those charges against social democrats? Give me a fucking break. He was as opposed to extreme liberalism as he was totalitarianism.

You do realize what he's saying here, yes? He's criticizing those who reduce the socialist movement to "heresy-hunters." He's not saying that socialist writers present this reductive impression; he's saying critiques of socialism are often reductive.

Orwell actually believed in socialist policies, and The Road to Wigan Pier is in part a defense of his socialism.

Did I say he was anarcho capitalist? In Wigan Pier he was juxtaposing the wretched lot of the underclass with the English bourgeoisie (and counting himself among them) through his own undertaking to live among the underclass for a time. It is apparent across his writings that his target was totalitarianism, but particularly that of the socialist/communist sort as time went on (probably because the Fascist variant had already met with defeat - Animal Farm and 1984 came after the war and Wigan Pier).

He obviously showed no love for the Corporation, as it chewed through the underclass, but he also recognized the elements of grey: Where the engine for the slum was also the engine out of it. He was against a Means Test for aid but for programs that helped people work and provide for themselves, and noted this was not a a preferred Socialist policy:

They say that the occupational centres are simply a device to keep the unemployed quiet and give them the illusion
that something is being done for them. Undoubtedly that is the underlying motive. Keep a man busy mending boots and he is less likely to read the Daily Worker. Also there is a nasty Y.M.C.A. atmosphere about these places which you can feel as soon as you go in. The unemployed men who frequent them are mostly of the cap-touching type--the type who tells you oilily that he is 'Temperance' and votes Conservative. Yet even here you feel yourself torn both ways. For probably it is better that a man should waste his time even with such rubbish as sea-grass work than that for years upon end he should do absolutely nothing.
...............
The whole trade union movement testifies to this; so do the excellent working-men's clubs--really a sort of glorified cooperative pub, and splendidly organized--which are so common in Yorkshire. In many towns the N.U.W.M. have shelters and arrange speeches by Communist speakers. But even at these shelters the men who go there do nothing but sit round the stove and occasionally play a game of dominoes. If this move-met could be combined with something along the lines of the occupational centres, it would be nearer what is needed. It is a deadly thing to see a skilled man running to seed, year after year, in utter, hopeless idleness.

Here, is where he fails to see how the former relates to the latter, or in general how the types and attitudes he marks as being drawn to Socialism specifically inhibit productivity. This is why it matters not whether those clamoring for the means of production get them, for they actually want nothing to do with them. This is why, man for man, fascism is a superior form of collectivism to communism - it leaves the means to those who will use them and simply takes more off the top. The problem for 20th century fascism is it didn't have enough men, and it was inferior to 20th century Anglo-liberalism.

It's interesting that he notes that wastefulness is endemic in the expenditure of allowances (but with a cynical view that were they uniformly better at spending, it would be reduced. The more things change, the more they remain the same:
I doubt, however, whether the unemployed would ultimately benefit if they learned to spend their money more economically. For it is only the
fact that they are not economical that keeps their allowances so high. An English-man on the P.A.C. gets fifteen shillings a week because fifteen shillings is the smallest sum on which he can conceivably keep alive. If he were, say, an Indian or Japanese coolie, who can live on rice and onions, he wouldn't get fifteen shillings a week--he would be lucky if he got fifteen shillings a month. Our unemployment allowances, miser-able though they are, are framed to suit a population with very high standards and not much notion of economy. If the unemployed learned to be better managers they would be visibly better off, and I fancy it would not be long before the dole was docked correspondingly.

Ultimately, the constant sentiment, the one I referenced first, throughout Wigan Pier can be captured in this bit:

This is the outlook of a confessed reactionary. But how about the middle-class person whose views are not reactionary but 'advanced'? Beneath his revolutionary mask, is he really so different from the other?

and this

The middle-class Socialist enthuses over the proletariat and runs 'summer schools' where the proletarian and the repentant bourgeois are supposed to fall upon one another's necks and be brothers for ever; and the bourgeois visitors come away saying how wonderful and inspiring it has all been (the proletarian ones come away saying something different). And then there is the outer-suburban creeping Jesus, a hangover from the William Morris period, but still surprisingly common, who goes about saying 'Why must we level down? Why not level up?' and proposes to level the working class 'up' (up to his own standard) by means of hygiene, fruit-juice, birth-control, poetry, etc.

Orwell stabs at his own kind consistently:

it is not easy to crash your way into the literary intelligentsia if you happen to be a decent human being. The modem English literary world, at any rate the high-brow section of it, is a sort of poisonous jungle where only weeds can flourish.

It is irony then, that he spends the entire 10th chapter engaging in the thing which he notes, in alternating paragraphs even, is quite easy for the Socialist to do (criticize their own). I would quote from it but that would require far too much space.

Orwell's version, or vision, if you will, of Socialism was at odds with nearly anyone who called themselves Socialist - by his own admission. Can we then even call him a Socialist? Rather, he seems to imply in the final chapter that he is really a communal Luddite with no hopes of realizing that goal.
 
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Orwell's version, or vision, if you will, of Socialism was at odds with nearly anyone who called themselves Socialist - by his own admission. Can we then even call him a Socialist? Rather, he seems to imply in the final chapter that he is really a communal Luddite with no hopes of realizing that goal.

He also believed that capitalism would never achieve its goal (as proclaimed by its champions, anyway); or, if it did achieve its goal of awarding wealth to the successful, then its creation of enormous amounts of poverty and suffering was not something we should admire and applaud. He didn't think capitalism had a realistic or plausible future. In that sense, a great deal of his thought mirrors was Althusser would come to call "scientific Marxism."

Much of his intellectual development was as in debt to British Marxism as it was vocally critical of it. Also, one of the reasons for his attacks on the British communists was that they were unfairly critical of him for not being radical enough; so it's likely his attitude toward them reflected a combination of resentment and disagreement. Phil Bounds wrote a book on this several years ago. It's more complicated than whether Orwell was opposed to his communist contemporaries or in league with them (but in many cases he was in league with them).
 
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He also believed that capitalism would never achieve its goal (as proclaimed by its champions, anyway); or, if it did achieve its goal of awarding wealth to the successful, then its creation of enormous amounts of poverty and suffering was not something we should admire and applaud.

The problem with that Orwellian analysis if you will, is that the poverty created by capitalism would be riches compared with competing systems. The problem with capitalism is not that the rising tide lifts all boats (which it does), it's the concomitant loss of meaning due to things not caused by capitalism but related to correlated idealogical/cultural forces. The dirt farmer living in a mud hut on a homestead plot in Kansas in the 19th century had more reason to live than the person working part time at McDonalds and on welfare, with cable, wifi, Netflix, and Iphone, AC, refrigeration, a car, etc. etc.
 
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The problem with that Orwellian analysis if you will, is that the poverty created by capitalism would be riches compared with competing systems. The problem with capitalism is not that the rising tide lifts all boats (which it does), it's the concomitant loss of meaning due to things not caused by capitalism but related to correlated idealogical/cultural forces. The dirt farmer living in a mud hut on a homestead plot in Kansas in the 19th century had more reason to live than the person working part time at McDonalds and on welfare, with cable, wifi, Netflix, and Iphone, AC, refrigeration, a car, etc. etc.

As much as I disagree with most of what you say, my point in bringing up this "Orwellian analysis" wasn't to get into an argument about capitalism. It was to make sure you knew more about the "keen observer" who "peered through the looking-glass," and his relationship to the British communists, many of whom informed his thinking about Western society.

In short, you like to jump to conclusions with Orwell, as many anti-statists do.
 
In short, you like to jump to conclusions with Orwell, as many anti-statists do.

I don't see the conclusions jumped too. He disagreed, with good reason, with existing Socialists. He had communal Luddite sentiments. That he couldn't recognize the "+" in the 2 and 2 he laid out regarding handouts and productivity, and what the subsequent "4" was, is the blindness contributed by his cleaving to equalité.