If Mort Divine ruled the world

[Einherjar86]

I mean that it's not a defense because the relationship between the work and some lit departments isn't representative of the relationship between a work and basically anyone else, never mind the relationship between the author and the work.

What difference does this make if we're talking about the ideals, values, qualities, etc. of the works themselves? Who's more qualified to speak about that--me, or a generally uninformed public?

I don't even know where we are at this point in the argument; all I know is that you still haven't admitted you're wrong about twentieth-century artistic movements and probably aren't going to.

Read it yesterday. I was surprised at how scathing it was. Coates may be no revolutionary on the front lines like West, but calling Coates a fetishist of white supremacy is a bit much. West's critique was also rather narrow in its scope. He seems to base this op-ed primarily on Coates's most recent book and neglects the contradictions to his assertions found in Coates's previous writings (Personally, I don't find the contradictions entirely problematic. Attitudes and reasoning are contextual). Coates is a pessimist, sure. Fetishist? Ouch. The first thing that popped into my mind when I read that though was Coates's self-reflection in Paris when, in the midst of following a stranger around the city, he realized he didn't have to be on edge as if he were putting himself into danger, with the parallel being the streets of Baltimore on which the book begins.

Here's Coates's rebuttal on Twitter: https://twitter.com/tanehisicoates/status/942524465346310144

I agree with West's argument on some points, but not every black thinker should have to be a black radical without being utterly shamed by the revolutionaries. Practically speaking, I don't get it, but then it's also not intended to be practical.

Not sure I get it either, but I thought there were some effective critiques strewn throughout. I do happen to think that Coates walks a fine line between nuanced critique and fetishism, so I found the argument timely; but I'm not sure it's fair to judge him on only his most recent work, as you note.

 

[Dak]

What difference does this make if we're talking about the ideals, values, qualities, etc. of the works themselves? Who's more qualified to speak about that--me, or a generally uninformed public?

I don't even know where we are at this point in the argument; all I know is that you still haven't admitted you're wrong about twentieth-century artistic movements and probably aren't going to.

I'm talking about their popular effects, and artist intent. You don't acknowledge artist intent as mattering and don't care about the effects because they are not informed by high critique. I guess we are at an impasse.

 

[Einherjar86]

But even considering artistic intent... do you really think writers like Eliot, Joyce, and Woolf--or painters like Picasso and Matisse--or composers like Stravinsky--do you really think these figures promoted a philosophy of rejection, nihilism, and misanthropy? Or even that the majority of writers, painters, and composers promoted such a philosophy? I'm struggling to figure out why the hell you believe this.

 

[rms]

https://www.theguardian.com/comment...-coates-neoliberal-black-struggle-cornel-west

after this comp science shit ends ill catch up to this 'drama,' but it seems to have the effect I expected..

https://twitter.com/nhannahjones/status/943122135681323009

 

[Dak]

But even considering artistic intent... do you really think writers like Eliot, Joyce, and Woolf--or painters like Picasso and Matisse--or composers like Stravinsky--do you really think these figures promoted a philosophy of rejection, nihilism, and misanthropy? Or even that the majority of writers, painters, and composers promoted such a philosophy? I'm struggling to figure out why the hell you believe this.

Lol poets. But I did say modernists and post-modernists, and I guess you are focusing on modernists because that's less the less obvious claim? Music typically isn't considered in terms of modern and post-modern though, to my knowledge. Kind of hard to attach ideology to music without words to accompany in some fashion.

 

[Einherjar86]

Lol poets. But I did say modernists and post-modernists, and I guess you are focusing on modernists because that's less the less obvious claim? Music typically isn't considered in terms of modern and post-modern though, to my knowledge. Kind of hard to attach ideology to music without words to accompany in some fashion.

Way to not answer the question. Also, for the record, Eliot is a poet--Woolf and Joyce wrote prose. I focused on modernists because I was trying to keep the list short. I could also include Pynchon, DeLillo, Percy, Bellow, Beckett, Barth, Atwood, etc. etc. Are you really dodging the question because I only included the names of modernists?

But of course, your knowledge in this area is predictably lacking...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modernism_(music)

 

[Dak]

Way to not answer the question. Also, for the record, Eliot is a poet--Woolf and Joyce wrote prose. I focused on modernists because I was trying to keep the list short. I could also include Pynchon, DeLillo, Percy, Bellow, Beckett, Barth, Atwood, etc. etc. Are you really dodging the question because I only included the names of modernists?

I could point out that merely on wiki perusal, Pynchon wrote material that flirted with the same SJW themes we see constantly now but in a more hamfisted manner. So he maybe pushed some technical boundaries of his time. Between Gravity's Rainbow, Vineland, and Against The Day the angle is there even if (maybe) not hamfisted. Are each one of these names you list so obvious? Fiction is already mostly a waste. I feel like I've lost valuable time even reading the cliff notes on these books.

But of course, your knowledge in this area is predictably lacking...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modernism_(music)

The wiki says there is significant disagreement over this. Of course we can slap a label on something, but the reasons appear tenuous a priori in this case for the reasons already mentioned. What's the connection between an arrangement of notes and any of the modernists you listed, much less the post-modernists? Maybe they talked? You've talked to me, yet you aren't writing anything related to what I produce.

 

[Einherjar86]

I could point out that merely on wiki perusal, Pynchon wrote material that flirted with the same SJW themes we see constantly now but in a more hamfisted manner.

You could say that, and you'd be wrong.

Look, if all you care to do is peruse Wikipedia, then fine. But don't claim that gives you some deep insight into the fiction you're reading about. To say that Pynchon "flirted" with SJW themes is obvious, as he was a counterculture writer. To say he did so "in a more hamfisted manner" is confidently stupid, especially given that you haven't actually read him. How could you even claim to know whether his prose is hamfisted? Sounds stupid to me.

Are each one of these names you list so obvious?

Yes. Because those names represent central figures around whom other artists convened.

Fiction is already mostly a waste. I feel like I've lost valuable time even reading the cliff notes on these books.

Fair enough. I've lost valuable time responding to your posts. The fact that you lack the imagination to see the value in fiction makes all of your comments suspect, in my opinion.

And personally, I'd say that fiction probably tells us more about humanity than psychology does.

I'm done talking with you.

 

[Dak]

Fiction tells us more about humanity than psychology does.

Well there's your conceit. We argue about psychological impact because you fancy yourself a psychologist as well.

 

[Einherjar86]

Humanity isn’t all about psychology Dak.

 

[CiG]

Humanity is about cheeseburgers.

 

[HamburgerBoy]

*Hamburgers

Fuck cheese

 

[isberg]

Patient: So, i have been thinking about suicide.
Casettepsycologist: Cheeseburger.
Patient: I will reconsider.

Sounds like a career oportunity. Looking forward to the post in the "Jobs/professions" thread.

 

[Omni]

@HamburgerBoy

Are you part of the approximately 75% of humans (read: inferior beings) that can't digest lactose properly?

 

[Dak]

Humanity isn’t all about psychology Dak.

That's a complete non-sequitur. You said fiction tells us more about humanity than psychology. I did not respond with "Humanity is all about psychology". I did disagree with your assertion, implying that instead "Psychology tells us more about humanity". If not, we would simply read novels to our patients and assign novels to clinicians to understand our patients.

 

[Einherjar86]

If not, we would simply read novels to our patients and assign novels to clinicians to understand our patients.

Maybe we should.

 

[Dak]

Maybe we should.

I thought you had a philosophy degree. Sad!

 

[HamburgerBoy]

@HamburgerBoy

Are you part of the approximately 75% of humans (read: inferior beings) that can't digest lactose properly?

Correct, although my aversion to shitty cheeseburger cheese has nothing to do with that. I can eat small amounts of dairy without issues, but I can't drink a glass of milk without lactase anymore.

 

[CiG]

I meant homemade cheeseburgers, I don't eat fast food.
I use great quality cheese.

 

[Omni]

Correct, although my aversion to shitty cheeseburger cheese has nothing to do with that. I can eat small amounts of dairy without issues, but I can't drink a glass of milk without lactase anymore.

I only make cheeseburgers with good cheese on them. Processed cheese is nasty.