If Mort Divine ruled the world

Seriously? We can take someone seriously and still critique their work; but you find one thing wrong with French critical theory and tend to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

I simply don't agree with your objections to Derrida and Foucault, but that's not because I think they're infallible theorists. It's because you and I disagree fundamentally on the central premises of their work. I have copies of History of Madness and Writing and Difference on my bookshelf, and your objections tend to be toward overly general polemics that one finds on the internet.

So no, I don't think that arguing against Derrida and Foucault proves a "lack of insight." But I think arguing against Derrida and Foucault because of some uninformed nonsense that Jordan Peterson said in an interview somewhere does prove a lack of insight.
 
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Seriously? We can take someone seriously and still critique their work; but you find one thing wrong with French critical theory and tend to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

Because we're talking about areas of competence and stepping outside of an area of competence. Personality psychology is an established area of competency. Forensic psychology is an established area of competency. JP stepping outside his expertise in the former to engage in the latter without consultation or supervision is easily demonstrably a problem. What is the essential competency (or competencies) of French critical theory?
 
Seriously? We can take someone seriously and still critique their work; but you find one thing wrong with French critical theory and tend to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

Because we're talking about areas of competence and stepping outside of an area of competence.

That's not an excuse for rejecting the legitimacy of these theorists. Even I have acknowledged that Peterson appears to be a successful psychologist (although I admit to repeating what I've read from others). I do not understand the logic of your "because."

Personality psychology is an established area of competency. Forensic psychology is an established area of competency. JP stepping outside his expertise in the former to engage in the latter without consultation or supervision is easily demonstrably a problem. What is the essential competency (or competencies) of French critical theory?

I'm not going to try and list or describe what I take to be the "competencies" of critical theory. If you have a particular example in mind in which a critical theorist stepped outside his or her "area of competence," then feel free to share it. But as far as I can recall, your objections haven't been about whether a critical theorist had any authority on a subject.

As far as the two names you mentioned go, Derrida was an expert in Western philosophy, and a philosopher of language and literature; and Foucault was an expert in Western philosophy and the history of ideas. Both of them pretty much stuck to those subjects in their work.
 
I do not understand the logic of your "because."

I'm not going to try and list or describe what I take to be the "competencies" of critical theory. If you have a particular example in mind in which a critical theorist stepped outside his or her "area of competence," then feel free to share it. But as far as I can recall, your objections haven't been about whether a critical theorist had any authority on a subject.

As far as the two names you mentioned go, Derrida was an expert in Western philosophy, and a philosopher of language and literature; and Foucault was an expert in Western philosophy and the history of ideas. Both of them pretty much stuck to those subjects in their work.

Well my only full reading of either was Madness and Civilization, which by all accounts I can find was pretty parallel to JPs tenuous treating of mythology, at best. Then we have on top of this the interchange with Searle about the needing to write 10% bullshit or whatever:

http://www.critical-theory.com/foucault-obscurantism-they-it/

And on this, Searle was much more charitable to Foucault than Derrida! So if we want to discuss areas of competency in philosophy, or simply in writing, there's certainly challenges to competency in either for those 2. Now, obviously we could introduce competency in obscurantism, but how can one begin to establish the guidelines for competency, and what is the gain even if one could?
 
Well my only full reading of either was Madness and Civilization, which by all accounts I can find was pretty parallel to JPs tenuous treating of mythology, at best.

Madness and Civilization is a study of the history of madness as an idea (a truncation of History of Madness). It's neither a defense nor a promotion of mythical imagery or whatever; it's simply a work that traces how society's notion of insanity changed over time.

Peterson's writing isn't a critical assessment of mythical imagery in society. It takes that imagery as a means to interpret some golden rule of social organization. It's basically like using the Bible to critique social behavior without asking oneself why/how/when the Bible was written in the first place.

Then we have on top of this the interchange with Searle about the needing to write 10% bullshit or whatever:

http://www.critical-theory.com/foucault-obscurantism-they-it/

And on this, Searle was much more charitable to Foucault than Derrida! So if we want to discuss areas of competency in philosophy, or simply in writing, there's certainly challenges to competency in either for those 2. Now, obviously we could introduce competency in obscurantism, but how can one begin to establish the guidelines for competency, and what is the gain even if one could?

I find it funny that people who dislike critical theory take Foucault's comment as a serious censure of French academic writing around 1970. Never do we consider that Foucault was doing what Foucault did so often in other interviews and conversations: joking. I can just imagine a scenario in which Searle laments the odd style of French theory, and Foucault sarcastically saying "Well, you know, if you're not ten percent incomprehensible, you won't get published!" And knowing Searle, that cranky bastard would jump at any chance to slander continental theory.

But ultimately, whatever Foucault meant is beside the point. Writing falls in the purview of all who consider themselves publishing academics. No one faults Wittgenstein for his often idiosyncratic and aphoristic style in the Philosophical Investigations. Furthermore, competent and clear grammar isn't absolute or fixed; it evolves according to those reading. Different disciplines promote different kinds of rhetoric. When I read Derrida, I often find it clearer and more cogent than the proclaimed mathematical writing of positivist philosophers. Foucault and Derrida actually didn't like each other very much and had heated arguments. Foucault's interest in history and the treatment of bodies (biopower) aligns nicely with the concerns of Chomsky and Searle, and his later work in particular was quite liberalist in appearance. By contrast, Derrida was interested in language and meaning (not linguistics per se), and how writing itself often betrays the order it seeks to establish.

Critics of Derrida so often make the claim that all he wanted to do was dismantle the system or some such--break down social hierarchies, disrupt language, blah blah blah. This makes Derrida out to be some clandestine political activist, which is quite far from the truth. Derrida was fascinated by the discontinuities that already exist in language, not with advocating for discontinuity. He was fascinated in how, for example, the Greek word pharmakon meant both medicinal drug and poison/toxin, and how this took shape in Plato's writing. His essay "Plato's Pharmacy" is one of the most fascinating treatments of Greek philosophy that I've ever read, and it's not political at all! It's simply a study of language (and of Plato's suspicion toward writing).
 
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They don't have to hide it anymore. It's what a lot of people want, sadly.

I find it important to recall Peter Watts's quote on Ray Bradbury:

"One of the things we tend forget about Ray Bradbury's classic Fahrenheit 451 is that the banning of books was not imposed against the will of the people by some tyrannical authority. The grass roots in that dystopian novel didn't want to read."
 
Sorry for the delay in responding, was in some intensive training.

Madness and Civilization is a study of the history of madness as an idea (a truncation of History of Madness). It's neither a defense nor a promotion of mythical imagery or whatever; it's simply a work that traces how society's notion of insanity changed over time.

Peterson's writing isn't a critical assessment of mythical imagery in society. It takes that imagery as a means to interpret some golden rule of social organization. It's basically like using the Bible to critique social behavior without asking oneself why/how/when the Bible was written in the first place.

The comparison was in that Foucault found what he wanted to find, and from single and/or dubious sources.

I find it funny that people who dislike critical theory take Foucault's comment as a serious censure of French academic writing around 1970. Never do we consider that Foucault was doing what Foucault did so often in other interviews and conversations: joking. I can just imagine a scenario in which Searle laments the odd style of French theory, and Foucault sarcastically saying "Well, you know, if you're not ten percent incomprehensible, you won't get published!" And knowing Searle, that cranky bastard would jump at any chance to slander continental theory.

But ultimately, whatever Foucault meant is beside the point. Writing falls in the purview of all who consider themselves publishing academics. No one faults Wittgenstein for his often idiosyncratic and aphoristic style in the Philosophical Investigations. Furthermore, competent and clear grammar isn't absolute or fixed; it evolves according to those reading. Different disciplines promote different kinds of rhetoric. When I read Derrida, I often find it clearer and more cogent than the proclaimed mathematical writing of positivist philosophers. Foucault and Derrida actually didn't like each other very much and had heated arguments. Foucault's interest in history and the treatment of bodies (biopower) aligns nicely with the concerns of Chomsky and Searle, and his later work in particular was quite liberalist in appearance. By contrast, Derrida was interested in language and meaning (not linguistics per se), and how writing itself often betrays the order it seeks to establish.

Critics of Derrida so often make the claim that all he wanted to do was dismantle the system or some such--break down social hierarchies, disrupt language, blah blah blah. This makes Derrida out to be some clandestine political activist, which is quite far from the truth. Derrida was fascinated by the discontinuities that already exist in language, not with advocating for discontinuity. He was fascinated in how, for example, the Greek word pharmakon meant both medicinal drug and poison/toxin, and how this took shape in Plato's writing. His essay "Plato's Pharmacy" is one of the most fascinating treatments of Greek philosophy that I've ever read, and it's not political at all! It's simply a study of language (and of Plato's suspicion toward writing).

Sure, he might have been joking, but it would be funny because it's almost certainly true. While I appreciate an explanation of differences between Foucault and Derrida, these explanations don't really answer my question. Maybe the work done can't be understood in terms of competencies.....yet there must be some idea of competency at least, because Searle isn't/wasn't going to be published in a Continental journal even if he bothered to try.


They don't have to hide it anymore. It's what a lot of people want, sadly.

I find it important to recall Peter Watts's quote on Ray Bradbury:

"One of the things we tend forget about Ray Bradbury's classic Fahrenheit 451 is that the banning of books was not imposed against the will of the people by some tyrannical authority. The grass roots in that dystopian novel didn't want to read."

I'm a bit confused as to what about any of this was hidden. Trump opened up with Build the Wall, and it was his most popular campaign platform (although Lock Her Up came pretty close later on). Furthermore, I fail to see the tyranny in border enforcement.
 
It isn't the illegal immigration or building of a wall that I was pointing out there, but the rather obvious neo-Nazi parallels.

We Must Secure The Border And Build The Wall To Make America Safe Again
We must secure the existence of our people and a future for white children

Both starting out the same, both 14 words. Not enough for you? Could be coincidence?

On average, out of 88 claims that pass the credible fear screening, fewer than 13 will ultimately result in a grant of asylum.

Who uses 88 as a denominator? No one really. 88 is one of the more obvious neo-Nazi symbols though, 88=HH and all.

Both could have been coincidences on their own, but together? Nah. All dogs in the DC Metro area can hear those whistles loud and clear.
 
It isn't the illegal immigration or building of a wall that I was pointing out there, but the rather obvious neo-Nazi parallels.

Both starting out the same, both 14 words. Not enough for you? Could be coincidence?

Who uses 88 as a denominator? No one really. 88 is one of the more obvious neo-Nazi symbols though, 88=HH and all.

Both could have been coincidences on their own, but together? Nah. All dogs in the DC Metro area can hear those whistles loud and clear.

Now who looks like a crazy conspiracy theorist? Of course, when you do it it's not a conspiracy theory. It's REAL.

I remember when you thought it was absolutely absurd that there was any deeper meaning to the constant use of the same occult symbology in pop music, and said if anything it was simply trolling people like me. Well, consider yourself trolled.
 
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It isn't a conspiracy theory when the entire administration has been furthering the white supremacist agenda.

Like I said. It's not conspiracy theory when you do it.

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Protecting the border is a basic, fundamental function of a national government, and enforcing immigration laws is a part of that.

I wonder how you're squaring the circle of a white nationalist agenda depending on a majority of Hispanic border patrol agents.
 
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The comparison was in that Foucault found what he wanted to find, and from single and/or dubious sources.

I don't consider this a serious criticism (and there's no evidence you can appeal to, since it demands that you access the author's intent). You could make this claim about any argument concerning any topic, regardless of methodology or data used. Comparing Foucault's and Peterson's methods, only one is truly critical. That's where I draw the distinction.

Sure, he might have been joking, but it would be funny because it's almost certainly true. While I appreciate an explanation of differences between Foucault and Derrida, these explanations don't really answer my question. Maybe the work done can't be understood in terms of competencies.....yet there must be some idea of competency at least, because Searle isn't/wasn't going to be published in a Continental journal even if he bothered to try.

Searle could publish wherever he wants to. He published in Critical Inquiry at the height of the poststructuralist rage; so despite what you think, the disparate writing and rhetorical styles of these thinkers didn't keep them from publishing in the same venues.

Competency goes through phases. There was a time when the rhetorical styles of French theory were in vogue, and people worked to be able to read that writing. In today's academic market, that kind of writing is no longer viewed as acceptable; but that doesn't mean those outside a particular discipline don't need to work to understand the writing. There's no such thing as unadulterated (or style-less) writing; that was the fantasy of the positivists, who ended up writing themselves in circles to try to try forge this fantasy (and the death knell of positivism was Wittgenstein's Tractatus).

There are passages in Derrida's work that aren't only clear, they're beautiful. So I don't agree with your position.

I'm a bit confused as to what about any of this was hidden. Trump opened up with Build the Wall, and it was his most popular campaign platform (although Lock Her Up came pretty close later on). Furthermore, I fail to see the tyranny in border enforcement.

I don't think it ever was hidden. Trump's never bothered to hide anything.

Also, it isn't tyranny (yet). For now it's just terrorism.
 
Comparing Foucault's and Peterson's methods, only one is truly critical. That's where I draw the distinction.

Being critical is in the eye of the beholder I guess, and usually comes with a pretty low bar. Foucault was as self-serving as any other thinker.

Searle could publish wherever he wants to. He published in Critical Inquiry at the height of the poststructuralist rage; so despite what you think, the disparate writing and rhetorical styles of these thinkers didn't keep them from publishing in the same venues.

Competency goes through phases. There was a time when the rhetorical styles of French theory were in vogue, and people worked to be able to read that writing. In today's academic market, that kind of writing is no longer viewed as acceptable; but that doesn't mean those outside a particular discipline don't need to work to understand the writing. There's no such thing as unadulterated (or style-less) writing; that was the fantasy of the positivists, who ended up writing themselves in circles to try to try forge this fantasy (and the death knell of positivism was Wittgenstein's Tractatus).

There are passages in Derrida's work that aren't only clear, they're beautiful. So I don't agree with your position.

My position was merely to ask what the competency or competencies in Critical Theory are/is. JP has been rightly criticized by steppingoutside of his competency, but it's an unfair fight when his opponents don't even have any defined competency to step out of. They just fire rhetorical bullets about whatever suits their fancy under the guise of "being critical".

For now it's just terrorism.

Is "terrorism" the new "nazi" or "hitler"? As in, people or policy or enforcement of such that I don't like is [this thing]?
 
Being critical is in the eye of the beholder I guess, and usually comes with a pretty low bar. Foucault was as self-serving as any other thinker.

That's my point. If all thinkers are self-serving, then what's the point of the accusation?

My position was merely to ask what the competency or competencies in Critical Theory are/is. JP has been rightly criticized by steppingoutside of his competency, but it's an unfair fight when his opponents don't even have any defined competency to step out of. They just fire rhetorical bullets about whatever suits their fancy under the guise of "being critical".

I already listed Derrida's and Foucault's specific competencies on the previous page. "Philosophy of language" and "history of ideas" are competencies.

Is "terrorism" the new "nazi" or "hitler"? As in, people or policy or enforcement of such that I don't like is [this thing]?

That's always what it is, isn't it? The left just doesn't like things, and so it becomes terrorism.

I think the forced separation of families seeking asylum is terrorism. But that's just me.
 
That's my point. If all thinkers are self-serving, then what's the point of the accusation?

But here specifically Foucault's history was roundly criticized as almost grossly inaccurate. The attempt to jam square pegs into round holes in on this subject is easily understood as a not-all-that subtle defense of homosexuality, which at the time remained classified as a mental illness.

I already listed Derrida's and Foucault's specific competencies on the previous page. "Philosophy of language" and "history of ideas" are competencies.

Ok, I'll grant philosophy of language, but "History of ideas" is incredibly nebulous. We've already seen Foucault's history chops are poor, and that he was never trained as a historian. Rather as a Freudian and in philosophy.

I think the forced separation of families seeking asylum is terrorism. But that's just me.

https://www.vox.com/2018/6/11/17443198/children-immigrant-families-separated-parents

There are also some cases in which immigrant families are being separated after coming to ports of entry and presenting themselves for asylum — thus following US law. It’s not clear how often this is happening, though it’s definitely not as widespread as separation of families who’ve crossed illegally. Trump administration officials claim that they only separate families at ports of entry if they are worried about the safety of the child, or if they don’t think there’s enough evidence that the adult is really the child’s legal custodian.

So maybe this happens, but if anything we can blame this on the stretched manpower and resources on the southern border due to cartel and illegal immigrant activity. Bureaucracy is inefficient enough in even optimal conditions. I'd point out again that the majority of BP agents are Hispanic. People who've never spent time around the border or haven't looked into the statistics act like there's a bunch of skinheads driving up and down the border in redneck trucks flying Confederate flags shooting or seizing everything that moves. Instead, it's a bunch of Hispanics in green uniforms driving government pickups and vans. These persons also run checkpoints on US roads demanding ID from citizens of all colors and professions. I had to show ID many times, and had my car selected for a drug scan a couple of times, despite having a DoD base sticker on my windshield and being very obviously white.

Considering what are claimed to be the conditions of both home countries and the networks which ferry persons north, being in these detention centers may indeed be a positive outcome for the children. They could be being saved from traffickers in any number of ways.

Illegal immigration is bad for the immigrants and bad for the US. Increasing the unpleasantness of the process acts as a "Con" in the pro/con calculation potential illegals must go through implicitly or explicitly. Decreasing the welfare state and ending the drug war would also change the calculation.