If Mort Divine ruled the world

[CiG]

Well not all people who have children, mind you. I have married friends who have children, and none of them rub it in my face. They also share my political and ethical values. Somehow I’m more interested in what they know—and how they’ve managed to maintain such unrealistic positions.

Well fair enough, I'm not the one saying you'll change your mind on specific things once you have a kid, I'm just scoffing at your confidence that having one won't "miraculously" have an effect on your ethics. One of the most common ethical shifts attached to having a kid is on abortion for example.

Having a kid isn't special outside of for those intimately involved, and people who go on about their kids are usually insufferable, but I think you're naive if you think having one yourself won't change you as a person outside of gaining extra responsibilities. There's nothing like it.

 

[Einherjar86]

Probably by living in places that have "good schools."

You have excuses for everything these days.

Well fair enough, I'm not the one saying you'll change your mind on specific things once you have a kid, I'm just scoffing at your confidence that having one won't "miraculously" have an effect on your ethics. One of the most common ethical shifts attached to having a kid is on abortion for example.

Having a kid isn't special outside of for those intimately involved, and people who go on about their kids are usually insufferable, but I think you're naive if you think having one yourself won't change you as a person outside of gaining extra responsibilities. There's nothing like it.

So I’ve heard.

I don’t want it to seem like I’m poopooing the decision to have kids or that it’s a huge responsibility.

I have complete confidence that having a child won’t change my stance on abortion though, and I’m not sure how to communicate the degree of my conviction. Whether or not I would abort my child has no bearing on whether I think others should. There’s no logical connection. It’s an emotional instinct that people insist others experience, and I find it irrational and egocentric (i.e. that one’s personal experience is somehow what everyone else should feel).

 

[CiG]

I didn't say anything about it changing your mind on broad abortion policy, just personal ethics.

 

[Einherjar86]

This is a bit of a weird claim--i.e. that having a child changes one's personal stance on abortion. If one's personal stance is to have an abortion, then one couldn't have the child in the first place. But if one does have the child, then it stands to reason that his or her personal stance is already not to have an abortion; in which case, the child wasn't necessary to change the person's mind. Their mind was already made up in favor of having the child. Having the child wasn't the cause of any ethical shift.

On a different note, if I believe that having an abortion is wrong except in very specific circumstances, then it stands to reason I think it's wrong for others--not just me. I'm not sure how a personal ethical stance doesn't apply to other people.

 

[CiG]

Your gymnastics here assume that abortion is a choice equally enjoyed by both parties involved in a pregnancy. I was adamant about having an abortion for example, my ex wanted to carry the pregnancy to term and so that's what happened. This was a major part of leading me to my current position.

On top of that in my personal life I am totally opposed to abortion, but my position on abortion access for the wider public is much more nuanced. I'm not for a total ban at all. There are many things I oppose in my personal life that I don't want banned, isn't this normal? Maybe you're just more prone to authoritarianism and it causes you to have trouble separating your personal ethics and standards from what should be imposed on society?

 

[Einherjar86]

Your gymnastics here assume that abortion is a choice equally enjoyed by both parties involved in a pregnancy. I was adamant about having an abortion for example, my ex wanted to carry the pregnancy to term and so that's what happened. This was a major part of leading me to my current position.

They're not gymnastics. I realize that two parties involved can have different opinions, as I realize that a government can impose birth upon unwilling mothers. My point is that your situation doesn't allow for someone to arrive at the realization on their own. It has to be forced upon them.

There are many things I oppose in my personal life that I don't want banned, isn't this normal? Maybe you're just more prone to authoritarianism and it causes you to have trouble separating your personal ethics and standards from what should be imposed on society?

It sounds like you might be prone to authoritarianism, since the only way for someone to change their mind in your scenario is for them to be coerced into having a child.

 

[CiG]

The only way? You're extrapolating a lot here. All I have said is that you're naive if you think having a kid won't change your ethics on something, and all I did was bring up a common one as an example. Having a child is a fundamentally life changing experience, that's all, and you can't possibly broach that until you've experienced it.

That said I don't care if someone has a child and still considers themselves pro-choice or whatever, a high number of people who get abortions are mothers in fact. I was simply bringing that up as an example of what kind of ethics can change via the experience of having a kid.

Not sure where you get the idea that in my scenario minds can only be changed through forceful parenthood.

 

[Einherjar86]

The only way? You're extrapolating a lot here. All I have said is that you're naive if you think having a kid won't change your ethics on something, and all I did was bring up a common one as an example. Having a child is a fundamentally life changing experience, that's all, and you can't possibly broach that until you've experienced it.

You're also extrapolating (and speculating) that the reason I can't separate personal ethics from policy is that I'm an authoritarian sympathizer. There are other reasons why I might have difficulty doing so.

 

[CiG]

You're also extrapolating (and speculating) that the reason I can't separate personal ethics from policy is that I'm an authoritarian sympathizer. There are other reasons why I might have difficulty doing so.

You're being obtuse? I dunno, but I think it's absolutely possible to separate one's personal ethics from what should be imposed socially. I'm a damn near teetotaler these days, but I'm opposed to the drug wars and prohibition. I think one of the biggest problems with the hard-left and hard-right is an inability to separate the personal from the political.

There's also the issue here of how you define choice. If my ethics mean that a fetus at the stage of viability cannot be aborted, you would say I am forcing parenthood on someone and taking away their choice, but couldn't the same be said for laws that prohibit the murder of a disabled child or adult? If the law steps in to protect the disabled person, is guardianship not being forced on someone here? I think your concept of choice is a false premise, because in no other situation do we consider not being allowed to kill an innocent person a negation of choice.

This ties in to how you consider animals' lives to be as valuable as humans'. You value the life of an animal you also kill and eat more than a fetus but at the same level of a human...? You're an inconsistent mess on something as basic as the value of life.

 

[Einherjar86]

Consuming alcohol/drugs =/= having an abortion.

Ethics dictate social relationships. If you have a personal ethical stance on something, you can’t then say that it doesn’t apply to others’ choices. If you don’t do drugs because you think it’s ethically wrong, then that means you think it’s unethical for others to do drugs. If you deny this, then you’re a relativist.

 

[CiG]

I do think it's unethical to abort a viable fetus, yes. But I'm not an activist, and as I've said before, I think my position will naturally grow in popularity as science, specifically embryology, develops and dispels these notions that a fetus is some kind of non-human junk matter to be discarded.

This is what I mean by hard-left and hard-right, they seek to impose. I'm happy to just wait and hold to my ethics in private. You'll never see me protesting clinics or waving retarded pro-life signs, and I'm not even in favour of total abortion bans in the first place.

Consuming alcohol/drugs =/= having an abortion.

No shit.

 

[CiG]

Anyway I didn't mean for this to become about abortion, we already know where the other sits on this subject. No point going in circles. I simply think you underestimate the gravity of having a kid but it's always going to sound ridiculous or conceited to you until you've experienced it.

 

[Einherjar86]

It’s really Dak’s didactic paternalism that annoys me. That guy was a dad long before he had any kids.

 

[Dak]

You have excuses for everything these days.

I never said having kids always functions to change a persons mind about x position. I said I hoped that it would. Unfortunately, it's very difficult to get someone to understand something when their social standing depends on them not understanding it. But it is true that rich liberals are the biggest NIMBYs and white-flighters. It allows them to avoid the uncomfortable interactions that would cause uncomfortable levels of cognitive dissonance.

It’s really Dak’s didactic paternalism that annoys me. That guy was a dad long before he had any kids.

It's kind of truuuuue.

 

[Dak]

https://nypost.com/2019/06/29/suny-...tled-seeing-poor-white-people-makes-me-happy/

Replace the word "white" with any other racial identifier and see how fast a professor would be removed.

 

[CiG]

"The points of view expressed were those of Dr. Powers alone and are protected under his right to free speech,” it said in a statement."

I'm sure this line would be similarly used if he had replaced the word "white" with any other racial identifier.

 

[EternalMetal]

Link to the text if anyone is interested: http://archive.vn/2cRrM

This kind of thing makes me feel like race relations will never improve. I wouldn't be surprised if many minorities secretly (or openly) share this same opinion. What a toxic attitude.

 

[HamburgerBoy]

Certainly won't improve as long as we have laws and Supreme Court justices that repeatedly rule in favor racial discrimination. fwiw I don't think a substantial portion of any ethnic group shares those kinds of views, but you only need 5~10% of the population to go rogue and commit to a path of violence to enact broad social changes and decline.

EDIT: Anecdotally, Puerto Ricans seem to be particularly criminal and unproductive sect anyways. We should just give them their island back, ban their entry to America, and let them become Haiti 2.0.

 

[CiG]

The guy identifies as a black nationalist so he's certainly some kind of outlier among minorities.

 

[Blurry_Dreams]

@Blurry_Dreams
@Einherjar86


If we give it to the wrong people (the ones who will eat it and shit it out and need more tomorrow and shit out babies) that’s like nurturing a farm of diseased rats

Mandatory sterilization, while I love the idea, it provides immediate positive results, will be too difficult to implement politically

mandatory sterilization of the people who are too broke to financially support offspring
but only after min wage becomes a living wage
can't sterilize people that are actually working a full 40-hour-work-week