If Mort Divine ruled the world

[Krow]

Tbh it’s pretty easy to hunt/fish for your own meat supply and you’d never be part of “Beef/chicken meat cartel” but i guess most people aren’t up for that. I’ve thought about trying to remove myself from the grid just a bit in that way but I can’t stand raising chickens/would need an egg supply so blah.

 

[CiG]

I love chickens. Best pets ever, especially silkies.

 

[Einherjar86]

> "I do consider animals' lives to be as valuable as humans'"
> "I'm a lapsed vegetarian that sometimes eats beef and chicken"

My cat eats tuna. I don’t get offended by that.

I grapple with my inconsistencies all the time. That doesn’t mean I can’t feel horrible about some of my actions and want to do better.

 

[CiG]

My cat eats tuna. I don’t get offended by that.

I grapple with my inconsistencies all the time. That doesn’t mean I can’t feel horrible about some of my actions and want to do better.

Your cat doesn't hold a principle like I consider animals' lives to be as valuable as humans'.

I don't equalize the value of humans and animals, I'm a speciest. But I have no idea how someone could come to your position while continuing to literally engage in the killing and eating of animals, and the implications this has on your value of human life is amusing. It's just a bit funny to me is all.

 

[Onder]

Tbh it’s pretty easy to hunt/fish for your own meat supply and you’d never be part of “Beef/chicken meat cartel” but i guess most people aren’t up for that. I’ve thought about trying to remove myself from the grid just a bit in that way but I can’t stand raising chickens/would need an egg supply so blah.

Yeah I've known people who started their own egg production with just a few chickens frolicking in the garden and that way they knew what they're eating doesn't come from mass production. That seems very sensible if you care about the animals in our food chain. What we started doing with muh lady is buying chicken from a local small-scale butcher where we know where the meat comes from and stuff, that's another option (it can be costly but hey, we order his meat like once in two months and we're ok).

For political and ecological reasons, I don't go to KFC ever, because I know the chickens mostly come from our prime minister's corporation, and that's garbage on many levels.

 

[Einherjar86]

Your cat doesn't hold a principle like I consider animals' lives to be as valuable as humans'.

I don't equalize the value of humans and animals, I'm a speciest. But I have no idea how someone could come to your position while continuing to literally engage in the killing and eating of animals, and the implications this has on your value of human life is amusing. It's just a bit funny to me is all.

I agree, it's inconsistent as fuck. It's something I announce as an aspiration, even as I struggle to realize it in my actions.

Anyway, as far as my potential progeny go, I don't see any reason why having children should make me more realistic when there are currently-existing children all over the world. Put another way, I don't see why children need to me mine in order to make me care about them.

I reject the implication that my views are unrealistic because I don't have "skin in the game." I believe the things I do because I plan on having children. Actually holding them in my arms isn't going to have some miraculous effect on my ethics.

 

[CiG]

Actually holding them in my arms isn't going to have some miraculous effect on my ethics.

lmao so naive yet confident.

 

[CiG]

"We don't know how much time we have left, it's probably a few hundred years tops because sooner or later you're going to have Putin-like or Trump-like people, I mean I'm sorry I would have a very deep antipathy towards Donald Trump... he's not temperamentally fit to have the secrets of theoretical physics at his fingertips, he just isn't. It's imperative to me that he not be elected in 2020, and that the Democratic Party wake up, get rid of its crazy fringe, so that we can buy some time..."



I'm pretty much burned out on the IDW crowd, I still think Heather Heying was the best gift it gave us, but Eric is usually interesting because he touches on so many unorthodox subjects.

 

[Einherjar86]

lmao so naive yet confident.

The timeless privilege of the child-rearing: to be the bearers of secret knowledge. You’d think having kids is a cult or something.

 

[CiG]

The timeless privilege of the child-rearing: to be the bearers of secret knowledge. You’d think having kids is a cult or something.

Ironic that someone who so champions the knowledge gained through experience of identity groups is so antagonistic to the idea that people who have had children have a kind of knowledge not attainable anywhere else.

 

[Einherjar86]

Ironic that someone who so champions the knowledge gained through experience of identity groups is so antagonistic to the idea that people who have had children have a kind of knowledge not attainable anywhere else.

Well not all people who have children, mind you. I have married friends who have children, and none of them rub it in my face. They also share my political and ethical values. Somehow I’m more interested in what they know—and how they’ve managed to maintain such unrealistic positions.

 

[Dak]

Probably by living in places that have "good schools."

 

[CiG]

Well not all people who have children, mind you. I have married friends who have children, and none of them rub it in my face. They also share my political and ethical values. Somehow I’m more interested in what they know—and how they’ve managed to maintain such unrealistic positions.

Well fair enough, I'm not the one saying you'll change your mind on specific things once you have a kid, I'm just scoffing at your confidence that having one won't "miraculously" have an effect on your ethics. One of the most common ethical shifts attached to having a kid is on abortion for example.

Having a kid isn't special outside of for those intimately involved, and people who go on about their kids are usually insufferable, but I think you're naive if you think having one yourself won't change you as a person outside of gaining extra responsibilities. There's nothing like it.

 

[Einherjar86]

Probably by living in places that have "good schools."

You have excuses for everything these days.

Well fair enough, I'm not the one saying you'll change your mind on specific things once you have a kid, I'm just scoffing at your confidence that having one won't "miraculously" have an effect on your ethics. One of the most common ethical shifts attached to having a kid is on abortion for example.

Having a kid isn't special outside of for those intimately involved, and people who go on about their kids are usually insufferable, but I think you're naive if you think having one yourself won't change you as a person outside of gaining extra responsibilities. There's nothing like it.

So I’ve heard.

I don’t want it to seem like I’m poopooing the decision to have kids or that it’s a huge responsibility.

I have complete confidence that having a child won’t change my stance on abortion though, and I’m not sure how to communicate the degree of my conviction. Whether or not I would abort my child has no bearing on whether I think others should. There’s no logical connection. It’s an emotional instinct that people insist others experience, and I find it irrational and egocentric (i.e. that one’s personal experience is somehow what everyone else should feel).

 

[CiG]

I didn't say anything about it changing your mind on broad abortion policy, just personal ethics.

 

[Einherjar86]

This is a bit of a weird claim--i.e. that having a child changes one's personal stance on abortion. If one's personal stance is to have an abortion, then one couldn't have the child in the first place. But if one does have the child, then it stands to reason that his or her personal stance is already not to have an abortion; in which case, the child wasn't necessary to change the person's mind. Their mind was already made up in favor of having the child. Having the child wasn't the cause of any ethical shift.

On a different note, if I believe that having an abortion is wrong except in very specific circumstances, then it stands to reason I think it's wrong for others--not just me. I'm not sure how a personal ethical stance doesn't apply to other people.

 

[CiG]

Your gymnastics here assume that abortion is a choice equally enjoyed by both parties involved in a pregnancy. I was adamant about having an abortion for example, my ex wanted to carry the pregnancy to term and so that's what happened. This was a major part of leading me to my current position.

On top of that in my personal life I am totally opposed to abortion, but my position on abortion access for the wider public is much more nuanced. I'm not for a total ban at all. There are many things I oppose in my personal life that I don't want banned, isn't this normal? Maybe you're just more prone to authoritarianism and it causes you to have trouble separating your personal ethics and standards from what should be imposed on society?

 

[Einherjar86]

Your gymnastics here assume that abortion is a choice equally enjoyed by both parties involved in a pregnancy. I was adamant about having an abortion for example, my ex wanted to carry the pregnancy to term and so that's what happened. This was a major part of leading me to my current position.

They're not gymnastics. I realize that two parties involved can have different opinions, as I realize that a government can impose birth upon unwilling mothers. My point is that your situation doesn't allow for someone to arrive at the realization on their own. It has to be forced upon them.

There are many things I oppose in my personal life that I don't want banned, isn't this normal? Maybe you're just more prone to authoritarianism and it causes you to have trouble separating your personal ethics and standards from what should be imposed on society?

It sounds like you might be prone to authoritarianism, since the only way for someone to change their mind in your scenario is for them to be coerced into having a child.

 

[CiG]

The only way? You're extrapolating a lot here. All I have said is that you're naive if you think having a kid won't change your ethics on something, and all I did was bring up a common one as an example. Having a child is a fundamentally life changing experience, that's all, and you can't possibly broach that until you've experienced it.

That said I don't care if someone has a child and still considers themselves pro-choice or whatever, a high number of people who get abortions are mothers in fact. I was simply bringing that up as an example of what kind of ethics can change via the experience of having a kid.

Not sure where you get the idea that in my scenario minds can only be changed through forceful parenthood.

 

[Einherjar86]

The only way? You're extrapolating a lot here. All I have said is that you're naive if you think having a kid won't change your ethics on something, and all I did was bring up a common one as an example. Having a child is a fundamentally life changing experience, that's all, and you can't possibly broach that until you've experienced it.

You're also extrapolating (and speculating) that the reason I can't separate personal ethics from policy is that I'm an authoritarian sympathizer. There are other reasons why I might have difficulty doing so.