If Mort Divine ruled the world

Well if his belief is all about supporting society/the greater good, then his statement is "correct" in his world view. A lot of people believe in that, I think.

How is condemning a considerable portion of the population to living secretive, unhappy lives demonstrate any interest in the "greater good"? You see, it's very difficult to maintain support for such far-flung idealisms.

Sure he ignores cultural impact on homosexuals, but main debate always seems to be either all genetics or all social impact, never a shared answer.

This isn't an excuse.

And Ein, only one line about art, everything else is feminism/comparing Clinton and Cosby.

I know. I read it.

One line about art, and it was a fucking stupid thing to say. Paglia has never been a favorite of mine. She dismisses anything she can't understand.
 
How is condemning a considerable portion of the population to living secretive, unhappy lives demonstrate any interest in the "greater good"? You see, it's very difficult to maintain support for such far-flung idealisms.
Well his argument, from what I remember, is that the reproduction of smart homosexuals is better than not. No idea how to account for that, but that was his premise.


This isn't an excuse.
Didn't say it was, it's just the information presented in the internet media. No idea what reporter actually discusses cultural intricacies in the wage gap or topics on the gay community via cultural impact. Just don't think we, as the audience, can expect that from journalists.


I know. I read it.

One line about art, and it was a fucking stupid thing to say. Paglia has never been a favorite of mine. She dismisses anything she can't understand.

Well alright killer, relax. Just thought you started and stopped after reading that. Her point about psychology and its representation in film is interesting. Can't speak on literature, but I think she has a point in film and tv.
 
What backed me off of anarchism was the problem of externalities, which a purely Rothbardian take on things ignores because it cannot deal with them. I tried ignoring them for a while but it doesn't work.

Some people give externalities a significant amount of weight, and Milo seems to be doing so. It's the "part of something bigger than yourself" justification.
 
Well his argument, from what I remember, is that the reproduction of smart homosexuals is better than not. No idea how to account for that, but that was his premise.

I have no idea why you're even bothering to support him based on the supposed merits of his argument. The premise you just specified is not even a premise at all; it's rife with contradiction. It's impressive that he can isolate so much contradiction in a single sentence.

His theory is that closeted homosexuals were smarter and took wives, and thus reproduced (notice how he also only allows the "smart" quotient for male homosexuals, not female). This completely counteracts the honesty of any purported homosexuality - I mean, he's basically saying that gays are happier when they are, for all intent and purposes, straight. How's that for a paradox?

The reproduction of "smart" homosexuals is better for whom? Why do closeted homosexuals count as smarter? Why doesn't he account for the culture at the time that was immensely hostile toward any outward demonstration of homosexuality, and suggest that maybe - just maybe- that's where we should direct our attention?

Just poor argument all around.

Well alright killer, relax. Just thought you started and stopped after reading that. Her point about psychology and its representation in film is interesting. Can't speak on literature, but I think she has a point in film and tv.

Why would you assume I stopped reading?

Her comment on contemporary art is not isolated merely to that single line. It is implicit in her whole spiel on psychology too.

She's lamenting the loss of focus on individuals, on psychology, and is criticizing our contemporary fascination with broader systems of thought and practice. She's repulsed by anything that doesn't treat the human subject and mind, which is why she turns away from art that diminishes human subjects (say so long to the novels of Tom McCarthy - which is her loss, because he's one of the best writers around today). Her entire critique of the lack of psychology is tied up with her views on contemporary art/literature.

She makes some good points; but overall I see her as a kind of self-praising controversial-ist. She's the female Slavoj Žižek.
 
Wasnt his point that homosexuals are "smarter" than heterosexuals and thus should reproduce to maintain the smartness of gays rather than dying off the "smart" gene?

He did say that the lack of shame of around gay culture is attributing to this wave of gay pride that he doesn't agree with. He said have your fake wife and kids and do whatever you want at night. "Hiding" their gayness I think is different than being straight.

I dunno, long article and not everyone is doing basically nothing with their time like me :loco:

I know it wasn't on one line, I mentioned that I think she has a point in the film and tv side of art. Can't speak on literature.

I didn't think she was that abrasive to come off as a controversial-ist, but I don't know her history or anything either.
 
You guys are way off base. Milo is working off of the increasingly supported science that IQ is extremely important for a wide range of outcomes. Improving IQ is good not only for the individual, but presumably for the culture in general - which affects those passers of genetics to some degree, unless they die out immediately after procreating. I assume he has some study or studies that suggests that homosexuals tend towards the right tail of the IQ distribution curve. Therefore, it is in the interest of homosexuals to pass on their (generally) higher IQ as opposed to living like atomistic hedonists.

On a different note, he is belittling the same sort of behavior I find in poor taste, for something approximating the same reason: "Is this what so many fought for?"
 
Sure, intelligence is important - that was never even a component of this silly little debate.

Now, is intelligence hereditary? I'm inclined to say that there are biogenetic factors that may influence it, but that experiences after genetics have way more influence. In this case, gays who adopt can create circumstances for their children to foster higher intelligences.

Now, let's grant that intelligence is highly hereditary - it may be that gays gravitate toward the "intelligent" side of the spectrum; but they do not make up a majority of the population, nor is being gay a qualification for being intelligent! The number of gays that occupy the intelligent side of the spectrum is almost certainly far smaller than the number of straight people who do, simply due to current demographics.

In other words, the explosion of gay pride is a pretty shitty explanation for why the human race is getting dumber.
 
The answer is: sort of, yes. To be strictly accurate, a lack of gay reproduction wouldn’t make the population “more thick.” But it could, in theory, arrest the rate of increase in overall IQ.

Remember, intelligence, emotional well-being and so on are only partly inherited. The rest of a child’s success comes down to good parenting. There’s no end of literature on the importance of father figures and what happens to communities who don’t have them.

Children raised in gay households are more likely to suffer mental problems, more likely to end up gay themselves and, if raised by lesbians, almost certain to witness domestic abuse.

From re-reading the article, I think you may have leaped to conclusions that Milo did not in fact argue.

http://www.breitbart.com/big-govern...us-dumber-its-time-to-get-back-in-the-closet/
 
There's also no shortage of literature on the irrelevance of father figures (or, to put it more radically, on the detrimental effects of father figures).

There's a double standard at work here, to some extent: when a father executes punishment, we call it discipline; but when a gay parent executes punishment, we call it abuse.

Basically, Milo wants to encourage secretive homosexuality; closeted homosexuality. But let's think this through:

A closeted gay man (and it is, in Milo's world, unequivocally a man) gets his rocks off outside the house, but carries on normative sexual relations within the house. This is almost certainly a fantasy, much like the fantasy of a man who has affairs with women while maintaining a stable sexual life at home; and men who increase their appetite in non-domestic sexual environments usually find their appetites less fulfilled by their lives at home (if only all gays were just bi, right?).

Sexual frustration in the home leads to dysfunctional marriages, or even broken ones, which are not optimal for raising children. Milo seems to idealize marriages from the 1950s and '60s; but a lot of these households turned out fucked up children, and in many cases it likely had to do with the fact that the men of the household were sexually closeted.

Such sexual domestication/compartmentalization also leads to abusive scenarios. I see no positive outcome to Milo's vision. Unfortunately for him, his "why everyone be a gay male asshole like me?" attitude isn't all that practical.

EDIT: if I'm attacking him for claims he hasn't made, it's because they're implicit in his overall argument, or they bleed out between the inner contradictions of his fantasy.
 
Well you're previous point was about how he thinks the world is getting dumber because gays aren't having as many children, but in this reply you are addressing the scenarios of gay parents and a gay man acting straight household. He doesn't address this so obviously a legitimate concern/counter-point.

I don't think I've read anything or been referred to anything that suggests the irrelevance of a father or the general negative effects of having a father figure. I can't really imagine it holds any weight since there is much more discussion about the failings of nuclear families versus the opposite.
 
Well, I haven't read or been referred to anything that glorifies the role of the father, but I know these kinds of theories exist - usually in more conservative circles.

You can find critiques of "the Father" in pieces by Judith Butler, Joan Scott, Mary Poovey, Donna Haraway, etc. Basically, any piece that looks critically at patriarchy is questioning the privileging of fatherhood.
 
Obvious source of critique is obvious :cool:. Feminist critique of the father boils down to a neat syllogism:

Axiomatic premise: All men are overrated.
Definitional premise: All fathers are men.

There's only one possible conclusion.
 
Ha, well sure; but you could say the same for the opposite.

Axiomatic premise: God is the Father.
Definitional premise: All fathers are men.

In most cases I find theoretical feminism to be more interesting and convincing than biological determinism (or religion).
 
Ha, well sure; but you could say the same for the opposite.

Axiomatic premise: God is the Father.
Definitional premise: All fathers are men.

In most cases I find theoretical feminism to be more interesting and convincing than biological determinism (or religion).

Biological differences give the different blank slatisms (of which feminism generally is a member) a smack down, so the antagonism is determined :tickled:. Nature is not "black and white", but sexually reproductive species are sufficiently dimorphic to reduce any grey area to "outlier" status. Obviously the cultural particulars of the expression of those dimorphisms in humans have separate possibilities for grey, but some things lend themselves to other things, and trying to fight these broadly innate "presets" if you will, "because feels", isn't exactly a foundation that invites even a modicum of rigor. It does, however, square very nicely with a Nietzschean perspective on struggle.
 
:confused: Feminism is anything but a "blank slatism"; I would say it's practically the opposite of a blank-slate theory.

I've never seen anything even remotely related to feminism, pop or theoretical (granted, I'm more familiar with the pop manifestation than the theoretical side), which suggests anything other than "women are only x because of culture". That's inextricable from blank slatism.
 
I've never seen anything even remotely related to feminism, pop or theoretical (granted, I'm more familiar with the pop manifestation than the theoretical side), which suggests anything other than "women are only x because of culture". That's inextricable from blank slatism.

You're accusing the feminist angle of presenting a false choice, which boils down to either a) constructivism, or b) essentialism. And you're not entirely wrong either, because a good deal of pop feminism does this; or rather, perhaps it appears to because it completely ignores the theoretical subtleties underpinning its own discourse. This is one of the problems I have with leftist discourse presented the political sphere: it usually ignores more complicated theoretical details for the sake of communication. Which is unfortunate, because this actually inhibits communication down the line.

The constructivist claim results in what Judith Butler calls "discursive monism," meaning that everything can be reduced to the effects of discursive interactions (this includes cultural interactions - i.e. "we are x because of culture"). In fact, Butler provided a refutation of the constructivist claim in 1993 when she wrote Bodies That Matter, but no one pays attention to this text - they go for the more provocative and controversial Gender Trouble (I think from '87). Critics attacked Butler, after her first book was published, for claiming that gender and sexual identities are reducible to discursive traditions and language games, and for denying the reality of the material body. Butler gives a different version of her method by highlighting the impotency of reducing the debate to a decision between constructivism or essentialism:

Paradoxically, the inquiry into the kind of erasures and exclusions by which the construction of the subject operates is no longer constructivism, but neither is it essentialism. For there is an "outside" to what is constructed by discourse, but this is not an absolute "outside," an ontological thereness that exceeds or counters the boundaries of discourse; as a constitutive "outside," it is that which can only be thought - when it can - in relation to that discourse, at and as its most tenuous borders. The debate between constructivism and essentialism thus misses the point of deconstruction altogether, for the point has never been that "everything is discursively constructed"; that point, when and where it is made, belongs to a kind of discursive monism or linguisticism that refuses the constitutive force of exclusion, erasure, violent foreclosure, abjection and its disruptive return within the very terms of discursive legitimacy.

The terms she's using at the end there are all very poststructuralist, but she's basically saying that material things - bodies and the sexes they have, or perhaps are - play a formative role in what we take to be discursive constructivism, and that this operates in an exclusionary manner. In approximating various identities, bodies are evaluated in a constructivist sense based on how well they achieve their approximation. In an ideal world, every single body would have its own unique identity, which at the moment is not practical (hence, in my opinion, all the online humor circulating about dog-kin, tree-kin, etc.; but even this isn't an escape of exclusionary identity since it merely says that human bodily forms might identify with a different bodily form of an already-established identity). In short, Butler acknowledges that physical bodies play a powerful role in the construction of identity.

For Butler, physical bodies absolutely exist; but all attempts to explain their influence on later manifestations of gender identity (that is, all appeals to biological causes or factors) cannot escape the gravitational tugs of various ideological discourses, be these leftist or rightist:

To "concede" the undeniability of "sex" or its "materiality" is always to concede some version of "sex," some formation of "materiality." Is the discourse in and through which that concession occurs - and yes, that concession invariably does occur - not itself formative of the very phenomenon that it concedes? To claim that discourse is formative is not to claim that it originates, causes, or exhaustively composes that which it concedes; rather, it is to claim that there is no reference to a pure body which is not at the same time a further formation of that body.

In other words, every time we appeal to hormones, or biological differences between men and women, or sexual organs, we aren't appealing to any kind of pre-discursive body. Those appeals are still, in themselves, discursive. This doesn't mean that bodies are entirely constructed by discourse, but merely that no claim, constructivist, essentialist, or otherwise, can peel back the layers and get to the true, pure body. Every theoretical or scientific description contributes to our understanding of what the material body is. The origin, in other words, is hopelessly lost.

Plenty of pop feminists misconstrue or completely ignore the intricacies of materiality, likely because they've only read Gender Trouble or they simply find it too risky to admit to.
 
Correct me if this is overly reductionist, but the latter appears she's essentailly saying (yet in an abstruse way) that we cannot have true knowledge of the thing itself. To go on from there and call into question all knowledge is the well trodden path of the epistemological and metaphysical skeptic, but Hume himself said this isn't a position which you can work with in the material sphere.