If Mort Divine ruled the world

[The Ozzman]

I'm actually still confused because you use 'group of people' when they aren't actually people (according to your affirmation above). Do you mean group of potential people?

edit: Nevermind. Dak kinda implied that in his post above. Forget it.

 

[Einherjar86]

So if "a group of potential people" are intentionally denied future potential existence because of selecting for traits on the idea that this will be more convenient for society at large, convenient for the parent(s), and maybe even their potential selves, this is horrible terrible no good very bad thinking/behavior. Conversely, if potential future people, which will be denied this future indiscriminately, are denied future potential existence out of purely personal convenience this is a wonderful thing no decent person could possibly object to. Otay.

Actually, it's awful in both cases. It's just that the first one makes the awful thing mandatory, while the second makes the awful thing a choice for a woman to make.

I would expect you to side, of course, with an individual's right; but I can see your personal values creeping into a kind of institutional program here...

The argument has never been about mandating abortion; that's the right-wing spin: "Let's all just have a bunch of abortions! It's too bad I'm not a woman - I can never have an abortion!"

 

[Dak]

I'm just tired of the indignation surrounding the anti-eugenics arguments when coming from someone who is also pro-abortion. It takes a very careful choice of framing to not trip up when holding those position concurrently, and Omni appears to be tripping up. In addition, despite how carefully one chooses to frame the issues, there is no underlying universal appeal to justify the framing, so even the most careful of arguments is subject to an unflattering reframe which can only be met with the sort of tiresome indignation already on display anyway.

 

[TechnicalBarbarity]

that's the right-wing spin: "Let's all just have a bunch of abortions! It's too bad I'm not a woman - I can never have an abortion!"

Yea, because the only people that are against abortion are republican men, amirte? Lol, and you have the nerve to talk about spins? Is Rules for Radicals your guideline for life?

https://www.google.com/search?q=pro...ved=0CAYQ_AUoAWoVChMIwrj0sZ3CxwIVQno-Ch3E4wYu

 

[Dak]

Pretty sure Pat is nowhere near being a "community organizer".

 

[Omni]

There's no conflict with being pro-choice and finding the idea of mandated eugenics immoral and being indignant towards people who try to act like they are exclusive of one another or who try to compare women having a choice to abort a fetus with them being forced to do so by the government, as that is blatantly an anti-choice argument that removes the bodily autonomy that being pro-choice affords you.

The government shouldn't have the right to decide that a woman should have to get an abortion for any reason. I don't agree with all of the reasons why women wpuld get an abortion and I personally don't think that I would get one, but it's not my place to force another person to do one thing or the other.

The conceptof the government deciding that it's illegal for some fetuses to develop and be born because they have a chance of a perceived lower quality of life is flawed due to the fact that the government shouldn't have the right to control the bodies of women or whether their fetuses live or die, especially not for an uncertainty.

 

[Dak]

There is if you start justifying your anti-eugenics position based on "future people". Just say "my body my decision", and reject any attempt to classify the fetus as an equally valuable body.

 

[Omni]

There is if you start justifying your anti-eugenics position based on "future people". Just say "my body my decision", and reject any attempt to classify the fetus as an equally valuable body.

Fair enough. I think that actually makes sense.

 

[Oblivious Maximus]

So this is a fairly reightous rant (a rarity for a Tumblr post) as I too loathe the "culture of children" as she refers to it. Thoughts? I guess the biggest reason I posted this here is she threw in the bit about "gender roles" and "misogyny" although humorously she used that word after recounting a scenario involving a female doctor.

 

[Dak]

A tumblr post embedded within tumblr posts full of made up scenarios.

 

[Draehl]

The only thing that I disagree with on this particular front is how men have no say in the matter, yet are held responsible for the decision. It could really go either way and be acceptable, with men having a say and responsibility, or neither. It takes two to tango (unless rape is in the picture, but that's a difference circumstance)

Woman wants abortion and you want to keep it? You're SOL.
Woman wants to keep the baby and you don't? You pay through the nose for two decades.

Not that I suspect to find myself in this predicament, but I disagree with it principally.

 

[Oblivious Maximus]

Made up or not I still agree with the overall idea of not having kids because fuck that.

 

[viewerfromnihil]

Just say "my body my decision", and reject any attempt to classify the fetus as an equally valuable body.

Do you really think that's a fair comparison?

 

[Dak]

Do you really think that's a fair comparison?

Is what a fair comparison?

 

[Omni]

The only thing that I disagree with on this particular front is how men have no say in the matter, yet are held responsible for the decision. It could really go either way and be acceptable, with men having a say and responsibility, or neither. It takes two to tango (unless rape is in the picture, but that's a difference circumstance)

Woman wants abortion and you want to keep it? You're SOL.
Woman wants to keep the baby and you don't? You pay through the nose for two decades.

Not that I suspect to find myself in this predicament, but I disagree with it principally.

All pregnancies have the potential to have health issues and complications for the women involved and giving birth can also pose unforeseen risks even during a normal pregnancy. The body of a woman also undergoes permanent changes during and after pregnancy.

These are just the health risks associated with pregnancy. Actually being pregnant can also be a liability in general from a real world perspective.

Weirdly enough, a man doesn't experience any of these complications when a woman gets pregnant, so I fail to see why he should have the authority to decide whether a woman has to carry a baby to term. This is even more valid when the man most likely has no way to prove that it's his baby in the first place, so it would create additional problems. You can do a prenatal DNA test, but that is only reliable after about two months of carrying a fetus.

 

[Draehl]

All pregnancies have the potential to have health issues and complications for the women involved and giving birth can also pose unforeseen risks even during a normal pregnancy. The body of a woman also undergoes permanent changes during and after pregnancy.

These are just the health risks associated with pregnancy. Actually being pregnant can also be a liability in general from a real world perspective.

Weirdly enough, a man doesn't experience any of these complications when a woman gets pregnant, so I fail to see why he should have the authority to decide whether a woman has to carry a baby to term. This is even more valid when the man most likely has no way to prove that it's his baby in the first place, so it would create additional problems. You can do a prenatal DNA test, but that is only reliable after about two months of carrying a fetus.

Yeah, I'm not saying there's a better alternative. Just that it is an incredibly shitty to be chained to a decision you have no control over either way (be it abortion desired, or undesired by the man), especially in cases when women make the decision based on playing the man in some way. Like I said, I'll go out of my way to avoid this situation including ideally using double BC and staying away from clearly manipulative women.

 

[CiG]

That was difficult to read, God what a whining cunt.

It's not hard to say "no" to ALL assumptions people have about your choice to not have kids, beyond that and you're just a jelly-spined moron incapable of standing up for your own convictions.

 

[Baroque]

Why oh why did I click on this thread. Why do people insist on making it so complicated. Can't we just refer to people who currently have a penis as males, and those who currently have a vagina as females? Who cares what their sexual tastes are or what they have in their pants honestly. It's one big clusterfuck these days of people trying to say others are less politically correct than themselves and I couldn't care less.

 

[CiG]

Noted.

 

[crimsonfloyd]

I'm just tired of the indignation surrounding the anti-eugenics arguments when coming from someone who is also pro-abortion. It takes a very careful choice of framing to not trip up when holding those position concurrently, and Omni appears to be tripping up. In addition, despite how carefully one chooses to frame the issues, there is no underlying universal appeal to justify the framing, so even the most careful of arguments is subject to an unflattering reframe which can only be met with the sort of tiresome indignation already on display anyway.

It's not complicated at all. Adults have the right to procreate and a right to a family. No one group has the right to take this right away from another group. Therefore, eugenics is unethical, as it impedes upon the rights of the target group. It further impedes against the human right to equal protection under the law, as it targets specific demographics while allowing other groups to reproduce freely.

Traditional abortion which is the choice of the pregnant woman, on the other hand, rarely impedes on anyone's rights. Fetuses don't and shouldn't have rights. Unless you make an appeal to a transcendental soul, it's hard to justify giving rights to an entity that cannot experience pain, does not have memories, has little to no consciousness, and has no sense of self. (I recognize that fetuses gain some of these capacities later in pregnancies, but at that point, we're talking about 1-2% of all abortions).