If Mort Divine ruled the world

[CiG]

Well I'd just say it's more to do with white society being obsessed witn black culture, but at the same time genres like Reggae are HUGE in Asia and South America so it's more global, but anyway this has gone beyond what I cared about.

I'm going to listen to some Reggae now, thanks for the inspiration.

 

[Dak]

I contend that reggae is one way that black culture repeats, reinforces, and capitalizes on its own mystique. In his book The Black Atlantic, Paul Gilroy argues that reggae has become an expression of "pan-Caribbean culture" that capitalizes on the image of exotic spiritualism.

Reggae has a large non-black commercial base, actually. Especially when Bob Marley was alive. You make casino capitalization sound like nothing, but it is rampant and heavy - come on! Totems for flair, wooden carvings of life-size Natives, peace pipes and headdresses in the gift shops... Indian Casinos thrive on the imagery of their heritage. Have you ever read about them, much less been to one?

Well "Pan-Caribbean" isn't African American for starters. Knew more than one Caribbean black in the Marines that would make it clear he was Dominican or whatnot, not "African".

I have been to many Indian Casinos, two of which I linked to. There are/were 2 more in Yuma I went to regularly. Similar thing, one more "Indian-ish" and one not. What about the imagery is inauthentic? What is myth? Do they need to have faux trailer parks and broken liquor bottles and suicide weapons everywhere instead to make it "current"? Why aren't the casinos themselves current? A casino with a casino motif!

Sure capitalizing on culture is ubiquitous; the point is that Hollywood didn't have those tropes forced on it by anyone else.

Forced by demand. Besides, why is it that any trope cannot have been originated in the culture itself? This is that agency stealing narrative again. Soon as the white man showed up on the scene, no one could remember how to act anymore.

Bullshit. Sorry. The Romani gypsies were put in concentration camps during the Second World War and have been an itinerant people all their lives. Even the phrase "I got gypped" comes from the popular notion that gypsies rip people off. They are an extremely subjugated people.

And have you read about the history of Chinese Americans? Don't even try to tell me they haven't been subjugated at some point during America's history. They were turned away in the nineteenth century and were lumped into the "Yellow Peril" in the nineteenth and twentieth centuries. Asians in general have suffered various forms of subjugation and exclusion in this country.

Gypsies have been second class citizens. That doesn't mean subjugated. They are on the margins because they intentionally maintain marginal behavior. They do not want to be a part of another society, and they do not want to found a space, if you will. In other words, they are not the Kurds.

The history of Chinese Americans. Yeah. A fraction of the total Chinese population (and going back to my original point, a millennial power and culturally/technologically advanced civilization - not at all like Africans coming over in the slave trade), and a fraction of the time as second class citizens. Same for "Asians in general", at least extending the empire/advanced civ portion to the Japanese. May as well point out the Jews, the Irish, the Italians, etc also were "subjugated" then if we want to grasp at that level of straw, and yet the latter are too "white" and the Lloyd Blankfein et al hardly looks the worse for ancestral wear.

 

[rms]

I think Ein has a point with the Gypsy depiction in America, but I also think gypsies do not get the same treatment that they receive in Europe

 

[viewerfromnihil]

The history of Chinese Americans. Yeah. A fraction of the total Chinese population (and going back to my original point, a millennial power and culturally/technologically advanced civilization - not at all like Africans coming over in the slave trade), and a fraction of the time as second class citizens. Same for "Asians in general", at least extending the empire/advanced civ portion to the Japanese. May as well point out the Jews, the Irish, the Italians, etc also were "subjugated" then if we want to grasp at that level of straw, and yet the latter are too "white" and the Lloyd Blankfein et al hardly looks the worse for ancestral wear.

Subjection was worse for Chinese immigrants than it was for European groups, even the Jews. They were limited in the trades they could enter into (as were the Jews, in some cases), which explains in part why many created laundries to support themselves--it was one of the few businesses they could start. Chinese women were banned from immigrating to the United States for decades. This policy was enforced to discourage Chinese men from settling in the United States permanently. The Chinese were also far more susceptible to mob violence and robbery in the West and it would be naive to say their complexion and facial features had nothing to do with it.

 

[Einherjar86]

Well I'd just say it's more to do with white society being obsessed witn black culture, but at the same time genres like Reggae are HUGE in Asia and South America so it's more global, but anyway this has gone beyond what I cared about.

That's a good point. I think that Western consumption of subaltern art styles can certainly overlap with this kind of commodification, and I think it can also bring them into the mainstream.

Well "Pan-Caribbean" isn't African American for starters. Knew more than one Caribbean black in the Marines that would make it clear he was Dominican or whatnot, not "African".

I should have just been saying "black." You're making a distinction that most people simply don't make.

I have been to many Indian Casinos, two of which I linked to. There are/were 2 more in Yuma I went to regularly. Similar thing, one more "Indian-ish" and one not. What about the imagery is inauthentic? What is myth? Do they need to have faux trailer parks and broken liquor bottles and suicide weapons everywhere instead to make it "current"? Why aren't the casinos themselves current? A casino with a casino motif!

What does authenticity matter? It's capitalization on cultural imagery, and it's widespread. The use of Indian images is particularly rampant in this country, there's no point denying it. We all played with toy tomahawks as children, as all played "cowboys versus indians," and we all are familiar with the gift-shop Indian curios. It's simply become a part of American pop culture.

Forced by demand. Besides, why is it that any trope cannot have been originated in the culture itself? This is that agency stealing narrative again. Soon as the white man showed up on the scene, no one could remember how to act anymore.

Sure, forced by demand; not by colonialism, imperialism, bigotry, etc.

Gypsies have been second class citizens. That doesn't mean subjugated. They are on the margins because they intentionally maintain marginal behavior. They do not want to be a part of another society, and they do not want to found a space, if you will. In other words, they are not the Kurds.

That doesn't prevent them from being subjugated or appropriated. Also, you said you didn't think anyone had ever subjugated the gypsies, but the Nazis did, and violently. That's a historical fact. In the West we exploit their image beyond any shadow of a doubt.

The history of Chinese Americans. Yeah. A fraction of the total Chinese population (and going back to my original point, a millennial power and culturally/technologically advanced civilization - not at all like Africans coming over in the slave trade), and a fraction of the time as second class citizens. Same for "Asians in general", at least extending the empire/advanced civ portion to the Japanese. May as well point out the Jews, the Irish, the Italians, etc also were "subjugated" then if we want to grasp at that level of straw, and yet the latter are too "white" and the Lloyd Blankfein et al hardly looks the worse for ancestral wear.

You're the one grasping at straws. The Yellow Peril and the maligning of Asian peoples is another historical fact, even resulting in the actual detaining of Asians. There's no doubt that the West has a particular image of Asians. All you have to do is read Edward Said's landmark book:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orientalism_(book)

 

[Dak]

I should have just been saying "black." You're making a distinction that most people simply don't make.

Cause they all look the same amirite?

What does authenticity matter? It's capitalization on cultural imagery, and it's widespread. The use of Indian images is particularly rampant in this country, there's no point denying it. We all played with toy tomahawks as children, as all played "cowboys versus indians," and we all are familiar with the gift-shop Indian curios. It's simply become a part of American pop culture.

But you were talking about myths before and now it's culture. How could I disagree now? Cowboys did fight the Indians, Indians used stone/flint tools, etc.

That doesn't prevent them from being subjugated or appropriated. Also, you said you didn't think anyone had ever subjugated the gypsies, but the Nazis did, and violently. That's a historical fact. In the West we exploit their image beyond any shadow of a doubt.

So <10 years of mistreatment and a people is considered subjugated for the rest of time? Let's talk about the Versailles treaty then, or the Roman wars, etc. The Germans were subjugated. I'm of an oppressed people!

You're the one grasping at straws. The Yellow Peril and the maligning of Asian peoples is another historical fact, even resulting in the actual detaining of Asians. There's no doubt that the West has a particular image of Asians. All you have to do is read Edward Said's landmark book:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orientalism_(book)

I never denied the racial scares, never denied concentration camp treatment in WWII, etc. My point is that trying to compare it to the plight of African American slaves in the US is absurd, in both intensity and length of time. Plus, part of the scare was because they were coming over from empires (depending on the scaremonger), not because they were "dumb brutes". But, let's say it is the same thing. Guess blacks must have put themselves in their poor position, since the other minorities seem to have recovered just fine - Asians and Jews especially.

 

[arg]

asians master race

 

[CiG]

 

[Dak]

Thomas Sowell is an Uncle Thomas because he doesn't agree with western critics and post Marxist/modern/etc critique.

 

[CiG]

In my experience, left-wing race avengers are always the first to accuse a black person of being a house my pals when they disagree.
It goes back to the whole feminist-shaming of women too, who disagree with feminism.
Saying they have internalised misogyny and they're just trying to pander to the boys, they only respect people's brains when they conform with their own position.

 

[Mort Divine]

Let's not be dishonest here and act as if that kind of bias is a trademark of only leftist politics

 

[CiG]

I've never met a right-winger that says that, probably because they're used to not really having much minority support, whereas the left has just assumed minority support is theirs.

I'm not saying that's the rule, just what I've experienced, I've actually been called a house my pals for saying I don't care about racist jokes and I don't want to stop them from being told.

 

[Mort Divine]

That whole "if you don't like it then you can get out" mentality that I see almost exclusively from right wingers is the number one example I can bring up. You know the "Murrica" crowd.

 

[CiG]

That's somewhat related to what I'm saying I guess.
Except that it's not a contradiction when right-wingers say if you don't like it then you can get out because they're not simultaneously immigration avengers whereas left-wingers tend to fancy themselves as fighting for women's autonomy and/or bettering the position of minorities, yet turn around and gleefully shit on minorities or women that don't fall in line with the pre-approved party ideologies.

But this is exactly why I'm not politically tribal, both sides are pathetic for the most part, only that left-wingers tend to exude this moral high ground disposition because it's so easy to shit on the right so they've always looked better by comparison.

 

[Dak]

That whole "if you don't like it then you can get out" mentality that I see almost exclusively from right wingers is the number one example I can bring up. You know the "Murrica" crowd.

Uh, as the laws have changed that has become an equal opportunity attack. If you aren't hearing it as a member of the progressive choir from the prog preachers, you shouldn't be surprised.

 

[Dak]

https://broadly.vice.com/en_us/article/new-study-validates-controversial-1-in-5-campus-sexual-assault-statistic

Undeniably Massive Study Confirms Campus Rape Is an Undeniable, Massive Problem

.....

Campus rape activists urge people not to get caught up in research methodology......

Rock solid social science work my friends. BTW, in light of this serious work, I conducted an additional survey to determine the racial bias of rapists at a local university. It turns out that 100% of minority female participants reported no rape attempts (I promise you this is 100% fact). Given that there is an undeniable rape crisis, apparently there is also an undeniable racism crisis, since the rapists won't equal opportunity rape. No questions about exact methodology please, you racist raper enablers.

 

[CiG]

This is the kind of shit that gives me a headache.

 

[rms]

What is the intent in putting this fear of rape to women? I don't get it.

College rape epidemic. Such strong language.

 

[CiG]

Most importantly, it's not even true.

It's like the old church goer fallacy, statistics say a certain amount of people go to church in the U.S. but the statistics don't make sense considering how many churches there are versus how many people claim to go.

 

[rms]

Just finished reading it, wowza

"No number of studies, all confirming the 1-in-5, will ever be good enough for a particular segment of the American population, which insists that women lie, that justice is readily attainable, and that rape is an anomaly rather than an epidemic."