If Mort Divine ruled the world

[Einherjar86]

You didn't call me out, get over yourself.

Except that women perpetuate that supernatural ability bullshit more than men, whereas you don't see the other minorities that are claimed to have supernatural abilities that you mentioned continuing the myth themselves.

That's not true. I have no fucking idea what you're even referring to.

Asked what you're referring to. It's personal experience, lo and behold.

I've only ever heard the intuition myth perpetuated by women, so who's life experience counts more? Because you seem to be implying yours does.

No, I'm not. I'm saying that if you can claim anecdotal life experience, then so can I. But ultimately, life experience isn't a convincing source for evidence in an argument like this, so it's a pointless comment to make in the first place if all you have is anecdotal evidence.

It just comes off sounding like folk wisdom, nothing substantive or convincing about it. This is why I asked what you're referring to, i.e. what your point of reference is. I'm saying the entire basis for your opinion is pretty irrelevant.

 

[CiG]

Well, I just did some quick google and youtube searches and the overwhelming majority of what came up was women talking about intuition and not in a debunking fashion.

I don't believe these myths myself, just fyi, I think it has a lot to do with evolution and the roles women and men played in history.

But I detest this notion that it's in any way similar to racism, which is what you implied.

 

[zabu of nΩd]

I've only ever heard the intuition myth perpetuated by women

 

[CiG]

See I've as in, my experience.

On the previous page I also said it's mostly women because I also understand that my experience isn't the rule.

 

[arg]

women are just holes for my dick

 

[CiG]

Sweat pores?

 

[Dak]

Pretty sure every woman I know has liked this or shared this on FB at some point.

 

[Einherjar86]

But I detest this notion that it's in any way similar to racism, which is what you implied.

It is similar though. There's precedent for this.

The subjectivizing and subjugation of women (which is an observable aspect of Western history) revolves around notions of woman as a functional object serving a specific purpose - a purpose bestowed by biology, and thus "natural." This is what Betty Friedan means by the "feminine mystique," and she's appealing specifically to the notion projected by men that women have an essential, ordained force (this goes all the way back to pre-modern societal notions of the earth goddess/fertility goddess).

The difference between pre-modern and modern societies comes down to spiritualization versus secularization. Overall secular rationality is good, but one consequence is that the spiritual "mystique" of women gets transmogrified into a purely functional, even commodified, role: women = womb (and mother/housewife/domestic servant/etc.). Eventually, the subjugated/domesticated feminine even takes on a threatening role, as outlined by Andreas Huyssen in his book on modernism, After the Great Divide. In this book, Huyssen notes how

Male fears of an engulfing femininity are projected onto the metropolitan masses, who did indeed present a threat to the rational bourgeois order. The haunting specter of a loss of power combines with fear of losing one's fortified and stable ego boundaries, which represent the sine qua non of male psychology in that bourgeois order [...] The problem is the persistent gendering as feminine of that which is devalued.

This can be traced back to an essentializing of the female role and anatomy, an association of values that is explicitly hierarchical in that it relegates women to a specific and secluded role and also associates them with lesser, more threatening forms of cultural production (i.e. women are of the earth, while men are of the heavens; women are of the body, while men are of the mind).

All of this is very similar to the kinds of fears and anxieties associated with black people, who were perceived to possess something inherent that made them threatening.

 

[Oblivious Maximus]

 

[rms]

this host sucks, too many idiots getting a voice these days. maybe always. no country for old men style.

 

[CiG]

It is similar though. There's precedent for this.

The subjectivizing and subjugation of women (which is an observable aspect of Western history) revolves around notions of woman as a functional object serving a specific purpose - a purpose bestowed by biology, and thus "natural." This is what Betty Friedan means by the "feminine mystique," and she's appealing specifically to the notion projected by men that women have an essential, ordained force (this goes all the way back to pre-modern societal notions of the earth goddess/fertility goddess).

The difference between pre-modern and modern societies comes down to spiritualization versus secularization. Overall secular rationality is good, but one consequence is that the spiritual "mystique" of women gets transmogrified into a purely functional, even commodified, role: women = womb (and mother/housewife/domestic servant/etc.). Eventually, the subjugated/domesticated feminine even takes on a threatening role, as outlined by Andreas Huyssen in his book on modernism, After the Great Divide. In this book, Huyssen notes how



This can be traced back to an essentializing of the female role and anatomy, an association of values that is explicitly hierarchical in that it relegates women to a specific and secluded role and also associates them with lesser, more threatening forms of cultural production (i.e. women are of the earth, while men are of the heavens; women are of the body, while men are of the mind).

All of this is very similar to the kinds of fears and anxieties associated with black people, who were perceived to possess something inherent that made them threatening.

All that shit aside (because honestly I'm too depressed to research Betty Friedan or After the Great Divide just to have a clear understanding of what you're referencing) why is it that women repeat, reinforce and even capitalize on these myths yet I don't really know of any other minorities that do this with their respective myths?

 

[Einherjar86]

Two-tiered response:

I think men perpetuate these myths as much as, if not more than, women.

And I think other subjugated peoples certainly capitalize on their respective myths! Look at Indian Casinos, gypsy fortune tellers, Chinese fortune cookies, African American jazz and reggae (which were simultaneously forms of cultural expression as well as examples of black commodification)... Subjugated groups in this country have capitalized on their cultural presence for years.

 

[CiG]

Those examples seem tenuous and I've looked on google and youtube for videos and articles on women's intuition and it's overwhelmingly represented by women, but at this point I don't care anymore so I'll just cede to whatever the fuck.

 

[Dak]

I'm unclear on what cultural myths music genres and gambling capitalize on, and calling members of the most populace race on earth and one of the most continuously unchallengeably powerful empires in history "subjugated peoples" is at the minimum an oversight.

 

[Einherjar86]

Indian Casinos make ample use of Native heritage and imagery. They are hotspots of commodification. Jazz and reggae are syncretic musical forms, blending aspects of African culture and Western music and marketing it; reggae in particular is noted for its connection to various forms of black spirituality.

I don't see where I've made any oversights.

 

[CiG]

Reggae? Okay, explain how the fuck that fits in.

 

[Dak]

Indian Casinos make ample use of Native heritage and imagery. They are hotspots of commodification. Jazz and reggae are syncretic musical forms, blending aspects of African culture and Western music and marketing it; reggae in particular is noted for its connection to various forms of black spirituality.

Capitalizing on "culture" is ubiquitous. Hollywood has done it for years with American tropes, just to throw out an easy example. But I'm referring to the "myths" part. If you want to say all culture is substantially myth, that appears to be a completely different sort of topic.

The "African Spirituality" stuff in music has a fairly small non-black commercial base(except the almost caricature of a SWPL), Indian Casino "capitalization" is mostly standard South Western motifs with some totems for flair, if even that. (Contrast the Viejas Casino with the Morongo, only a couple hundred miles apart.) Gambling itself is cross-cultural.

The primary oversight was the inclusion of the Chinese as subjugated peoples, and I also don't know if anyone has ever subjugated the gypsies. They just do their gypsie thing.

 

[Einherjar86]

Reggae? Okay, explain how the fuck that fits in.

You had asked:

why is it that women repeat, reinforce and even capitalize on these myths yet I don't really know of any other minorities that do this with their respective myths?

I contend that reggae is one way that black culture repeats, reinforces, and capitalizes on its own mystique. In his book The Black Atlantic, Paul Gilroy argues that reggae has become an expression of "pan-Caribbean culture" that capitalizes on the image of exotic spiritualism. Furthermore, reggae thrives on the popular image of black people as dreadlocked, weed smoking spiritualists promoting "Ja Love."

This is not, of course, how all black people act (very few of them, in fact); nor is it the only popular image of blackness. But my point is that subjugated groups exploit their own images in popular culture for capital gain.

Edit:

Capitalizing on "culture" is ubiquitous. Hollywood has done it for years with American tropes, just to throw out an easy example. But I'm referring to the "myths" part. If you want to say all culture is substantially myth, that appears to be a completely different sort of topic.

The "African Spirituality" stuff in music has a fairly small non-black commercial base(except the almost caricature of a SWPL), Indian Casino "capitalization" is mostly standard South Western motifs with some totems for flair, if even that. (Contrast the Viejas Casino with the Morongo, only a couple hundred miles apart.) Gambling itself is cross-cultural.

Reggae has a large non-black commercial base, actually. Especially when Bob Marley was alive. You make casino capitalization sound like nothing, but it is rampant and heavy - come on! Totems for flair, wooden carvings of life-size Natives, peace pipes and headdresses in the gift shops... Indian Casinos thrive on the imagery of their heritage. Have you ever read about them, much less been to one?

Sure capitalizing on culture is ubiquitous; the point is that Hollywood didn't have those tropes forced on it by anyone else.

The primary oversight was the inclusion of the Chinese as subjugated peoples, and I also don't know if anyone has ever subjugated the gypsies. They just do their gypsie thing.

Bullshit. Sorry. The Romani gypsies were put in concentration camps during the Second World War and have been an itinerant people all their lives. Even the phrase "I got gypped" comes from the popular notion that gypsies rip people off. They are an extremely subjugated people.

And have you read about the history of Chinese Americans? Don't even try to tell me they haven't been subjugated at some point during America's history. They were turned away in the nineteenth century and were lumped into the "Yellow Peril" in the nineteenth and twentieth centuries. Asians in general have suffered various forms of subjugation and exclusion in this country.

 

[CiG]

Reggae is the musical expression of Rastafarianism almost exclusively, are you suggesting that the artists are capitalizing on some black myth and aren't actually genuinely religious people?

 

[Einherjar86]

Authenticity is another matter. I would say that there definitely are Rastafarians who play reggae, and maybe some who don't care about making money.

My point is that the genre itself, by definition of being a musical genre whose category you can find in record stores or on iTunes, is an example of capitalization on specific cultural images.