If Mort Divine ruled the world

Is this really any different than the claims that people don't do X because they don't have a role model?

I wouldn't say they are different, but bringing in Jesus/Siddhartha/Mohammed whoever in makes it different than just being a role model.

And I also hate the post modernism thing, but I am not well read on all that shit so I just hate it in silence rather than research his paraphrasing/attacks etc
 
Ein is acting like it's pure coincidence that the venn of "people who like Marx" and "people who want to destroy the social order" overlaps significantly.

I don’t even know what this means. Plenty of postmodernists have no interest in “destroying the social order.”

You’re acting like it’s easy enough to lump all postmodernists into a convenient category. You’re as reductive as Peterson is when it comes to this shit.
 
will you quit acting like i'm arguing as some sort of anti-Peterson scholar? I don't act to know all of his views and i'm not riding a crusade against the guy, get over yourself.

So you're completely fine with throwing around criticism of him while you also admit you're ignorant of his views? Sure I'll get over myself, I'll use your immensely humble disposition as my standard. :rolleyes:

Also, yes you do act like you know all his views and I wouldn't call it a crusade but for someone who pretends not to care about him enough to actually go deeper you sure do post drivel anytime he's even mentioned slightly.

This is what I find absurd about his ideas, personally. It’s a horribly reductive definition of “postmodernism,” and no self-respecting humanities academic would conflate postmodernism and Marxism—they’re two entirely different discourses and they address different subjects (and for the most part, Marxists don’t like postmodernists because they view them as apologists for late capitalism).

This is the kind of thing that annoys me and I wish I could just ignore it and move on, but it's pretty clear when someone says something like this that they haven't watched or read too much of his work. He doesn't conflate postmodernism and Marxism, he often puzzles over why he finds that the two things are linked today, why there is an overlap of people who ascribe to the thinking present in both worldviews.

He's expressed confusion over it many times and has attempted explanations many times.

You’re as reductive as Peterson is when it comes to this shit.

Could you provide an example of Peterson being a reductionist when it comes to postmodernism and Marxism?
 
well 'postmodernism' is a little like the alt-right (which peterson is always quick to avoid pigeonholing) except even moreso, in that it wasn't a conscious, focused ideological movement, just a loose sprawl of ideas which arose as a response to modernism (which itself was pretty loose and sprawling) - it's a pretty hard thing to define in a satisfying way. peterson does make it clear that he's using the term to mean a disdain for and dissolution of hierarchical structures though, so while you can quibble about whether it's a correct use of the term (i'd say it's limited but not wrong as such, that's surely one of the most common ideas running through it), it doesn't really matter once you know what he means by it. i don't think he equates postmodernism and marxism either so much as believing that postmodernism (as described above) inevitably morphs into marxism because it isn't sustainable as an ideology itself.

all that said, i do wish he'd stop using it in such a buzzwordy way, it doesn't really come across very well and stops a lot of serious scholars from engaging his ideas from what i've seen.
 
i find he's pretty maligned as a pseud on philosophy boards (though he has his defenders too) and his use of 'postmodernism' seems to be the main bugbear people have, especially because he takes a lot of his ideas about postmodernism from a particular book (i forget the name but he mentions it now and again) that isn't very well respected either, and has admitted himself he hasn't read derrida and the like directly because they're 'unreadable'. i do find that pretty pedantic at times though, so long as he makes it clear what he means by the word does it really matter? i don't mind people criticising him whatsoever but many of his critics very obviously haven't listened to him for more than like 10 or 20 minutes (and many of them think that's enough ammo to publish snarky articles about how dangerous he is apparently).
 
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I don’t even know what this means. Plenty of postmodernists have no interest in “destroying the social order.”

You’re acting like it’s easy enough to lump all postmodernists into a convenient category. You’re as reductive as Peterson is when it comes to this shit.

Notable writers like Foucault were intensely focused on undermining Western hierarchies. There is similar language of struggle and oppression. Fans of people like Foucalt tend to not also choose Adam Smith as their favorite economist.
 
Notable writers like Foucault were intensely focused on undermining Western hierarchies. There is similar language of struggle and oppression. Fans of people like Foucalt tend to not also choose Adam Smith as their favorite economist.

One example, bravo.

Lyotard is probably considered to be more genuine as a postmodernist than Foucault (if there’s such a thing as genuine postmodernism—no country already covered this) and he wasn’t interested in undermining Western hierarchies. In fact, he abdicated responsibility during the student riots.

You think that representational critique, a la Baudrillard and Derrida, translates into political motivations toward disorder. This isn’t the case. Social critics aren’t looking to overthrow the patriarchy, they’re just tracing various avenues of cultural representation. Derrida wasn’t out to undermine hierarchical social structures, and neither was Luhmann, Deleuze, Baudrillard, etc. Foucault determines your entire perspective on postmodernism, and that’s why your view is reductive.

My problem has to do with Peterson’s use of postmodernism as a buzzword, like no country said. He appeals to it as a specific focus of study when in fact it’s a grab bag of different political perspectives, allegiances, and methodologies.
 
One example, bravo.

Lyotard is probably considered to be more genuine as a postmodernist than Foucault (if there’s such a thing as genuine postmodernism—no country already covered this) and he wasn’t interested in undermining Western hierarchies. In fact, he abdicated responsibility during the student riots.

You think that representational critique, a la Baudrillard and Derrida, translates into political motivations toward disorder. This isn’t the case. Social critics aren’t looking to overthrow the patriarchy, they’re just tracing various avenues of cultural representation. Derrida wasn’t out to undermine hierarchical social structures, and neither was Luhmann, Deleuze, Baudrillard, etc. Foucault determines your entire perspective on postmodernism, and that’s why your view is reductive.

My problem has to do with Peterson’s use of postmodernism as a buzzword, like no country said. He appeals to it as a specific focus of study when in fact it’s a grab bag of different political perspectives, allegiances, and methodologies.

I haven't read Baudrillard beyond some quotes/passage selections, and only a little Deleuze, so I can't speak definitively as to "what they were looking to do", but it seems as if you think that they can only have been looking to undermine hierarchy if they joined riots. Questioning any narrative is inherently undermining, to some degree, regardless of the accuracy of the critique. Secondly, the degree to which these writers are read and regurgitated to undergraduates and tumblrites with no broad framework for nuanced interpretation, familiarity with the history of philosophical discourse, basic principles of logic, etc., leads the the writers to becoming sources of bitesize justification for "fighting the man", which in this case is "capitalism", of which the easily available opposite is communism. Not everyone has spent a decade getting to your familiarity with the subject, and most people in undergraduate studies lack the cognitive tools to do so even if they wished to, to say nothing of tumblrites. Peterson may be wrong about postmodernism qua postmodernism, but he is right about what it means to his targets, as well as the combination of "postmodernism" and economic marxism.
 
Questioning any narrative is inherently undermining, to some degree, regardless of the accuracy of the critique. Secondly, the degree to which these writers are read and regurgitated to undergraduates and tumblrites with no broad framework for nuanced interpretation, familiarity with the history of philosophical discourse, basic principles of logic, etc., leads the the writers to becoming sources of bitesize justification for "fighting the man", which in this case is "capitalism", of which the easily available opposite is communism.

I’ll agree that representational critique exhibits subversive tendencies, but it’s really nothing like the kind of radical political action associated with traditional Marxism. I understand that he’s speaking to people for whom the difference is negligible; but if it’s going to become a firebrand to motivate people politically, then I’m going to take issue with how he uses the word.

I have familiarized myself with these writers, but not contemporary behavioral psychologists. These vague “postmodernists” aren’t going out of their way to malign current psychological discourse—they leave that to the experts in the field, i.e. psychologists. When Peterson reduces all of postmodernism to some form of post-Foucaultian neo-Marxism he does a disservice to his listeners/readers.
 
Also, yes you do act like you know all his views and I wouldn't call it a crusade but for someone who pretends not to care about him enough to actually go deeper you sure do post drivel anytime he's even mentioned slightly.

k you're just going to ignore things so not sure i even brought this up
 
^ I don't understand what's happening across the sea anymore. What is true and what's just plain trolling.
 
Well that piece was philosophically incoherent, but parts are true in isolation. People wouldn't think my wife is a veteran (for instance), and there are female veterans that obviously are vets and don't reintegrate well. Not exactly novel problems for veterans regardless of sex, but the "damned if you do/don't" nature of this sort of leftist female word vomit gets old.
 
but the "damned if you do/don't" nature of this sort of leftist female word vomit gets old.

This is essentially what I took away from it. I'm ignorant to what it's like to be a veteran but it seems to me that this damned if you do damned if you don't attitude is the philosophical underpinning of so much leftist writing. Seems to me to come from a fundamental rejection of the idea that you should take responsibility for the outcome of your actions.

Responsibility is a leftist's Beelzebub.