ITB Production question

[MetalSir]

hi,
i read a couple of days ago an interesting interview to mr skip burrows and paul frindle. they say that plugins works BETTER if used as the real machines that they simulate. and so we need to send to our plugins a signal REALLY CLOSE (in voltage) to an analog one. in this way the plugins should sound MUCH better, because they simulate the behavior of the real machines..

then i suggest to use (on protools) the TRIM plugin as FIRST plugin of EACH plugin chain in the session, and setting the TRIM to almost -20dbFS (that is quite close to the 0 VU, that is the best level for the real machines)..

this behavior, in burrows opinion, is the TRICK for getting ITB mix sound as good as OTB mix.

i read this article on gearslutz.. but i can't find it anymore.. what do you think about?



EDIT: i found the original article.. can i post the link to another forum here? or should i quote the entire discussion?

 

[Ermz]

Was the article in some way sponsored by any companies who produce plug-ins?

Mixing down near -18dBF is just good practice because it leaves you enough headroom to work without clipping your channels to get to where you're going. HOWEVER, many plug-ins... ESPECIALLY Waves, are not calibrated to work properly anywhere near down here. Have you ever tried to slam something with an L1 that was peaking at -18? You barely register any level. Same with the recent CLA compressors... I have to absolutely dime the inputs on the 1176s to get any decent compression on anything. The SSL channels are the same... you can barely get any compression unless you dime the input on the plug-in to get it much higher than -18dB.

So while what they're suggesting is good working practice, it in no way relates to the different ways most plug-ins are coded, and their varying 'sweet spots'.

 

[smy1]

I generally tend to be a little lower than 0dbVU on my channels and busses, but as Ermz said: some plugins just sound way better if you go in hotter. The Waves SSL EQ is one of them. I always push the signal into the red on that plugin cause I prefer the sound of that ...

 

[MetalSir]

Was the article in some way sponsored by any companies who produce plug-ins?

mm i really don't think so.. you know is one of the most important user of gearslutz.com

Mixing down near -18dBF is just good practice because it leaves you enough headroom to work without clipping your channels to get to where you're going. HOWEVER, many plug-ins... ESPECIALLY Waves, are not calibrated to work properly anywhere near down here. Have you ever tried to slam something with an L1 that was peaking at -18? You barely register any level. Same with the recent CLA compressors... I have to absolutely dime the inputs on the 1176s to get any decent compression on anything. The SSL channels are the same... you can barely get any compression unless you dime the input on the plug-in to get it much higher than -18dB.

So while what they're suggesting is good working practice, it in no way relates to the different ways most plug-ins are coded, and their varying 'sweet spots'.

mm.. i think that you should read here.. maybe i translated it very bad.. i'm sorry for the link but i think that this is a real interesting matter.. and the link is the only way quote exactly the words of mr burrows..

btw.. -18dBFL on your DAW should be like 0 VU on an analog machine.. not using an analog machine at -18dB..

 

[PaoloJM]

Some plug-ins sound good with a hot signal, some don't.
That's where your ears come into it.

 

[Adrian Warren]

Some plug-ins sound good with a hot signal, some don't.
That's where your ears come into it.

+1

 

[jeid]

Was the article in some way sponsored by any companies who produce plug-ins?

Mixing down near -18dBF is just good practice because it leaves you enough headroom to work without clipping your channels to get to where you're going. HOWEVER, many plug-ins... ESPECIALLY Waves, are not calibrated to work properly anywhere near down here. Have you ever tried to slam something with an L1 that was peaking at -18? You barely register any level. Same with the recent CLA compressors... I have to absolutely dime the inputs on the 1176s to get any decent compression on anything. The SSL channels are the same... you can barely get any compression unless you dime the input on the plug-in to get it much higher than -18dB.

So while what they're suggesting is good working practice, it in no way relates to the different ways most plug-ins are coded, and their varying 'sweet spots'.

I thought I was being a retard by recording at low volumes, at least I'm not the only one who finds that frustrating.

 

[-Noodles-]

The main idea follows, as Ermz said, to record / mix at around -18dBFS.
Reasoning behind it is that an SSL console reading 0dB on the meters correlates to the -18dBFS. Mixing through your DAW at -18dBFS as if it was a console will give you the +24dB headroom above 0dB similar to the SSL.

I work anywhere between -18 and -12. I never worry about the level that hits the plugs, I just use my ears and judgement.

 

[MetalSir]

The main idea follows, as Ermz said, to record / mix at around -18dBFS.
Reasoning behind it is that an SSL console reading 0dB on the meters correlates to the -18dBFS. Mixing through your DAW at -18dBFS as if it was a console will give you the +24dB headroom above 0dB similar to the SSL.

I work anywhere between -18 and -12. I never worry about the level that hits the plugs, I just use my ears and judgement.

yeah.. this is the idea.. but i even can't undestand if plugins are made for working better at -20dBFS or not.. have you read the 3d i've linked?

 

[Mikaël-ange]

We speak -18dbfs RMS, no peak.
We simply speak about gain staging guy. Same think for hardware and many plugins (waves, soundtoys, digi...etc).

 

[MetalMiller]

Someone should do a A/B

 

[MetalSir]

mmm.. no one read the 3d i have linked, uh?

 

[Mikaël-ange]

mmm.. no one read the 3d i have linked, uh?

I had already read entire thread since a while.
I think you "missed" the point because it's just basic engineering.
Odb VU=1,23volt at +4
Analog gear was designed to operate at this optimum level.
It's simply correct and basic gain staging.

Now in digital domain, you work with dbfs, so you have to calibrate your system (converter and DAW) for match level between analog and digital.
Problem are no real rule's apply so you have to choose corresponding level for get 0db VU> XY dbfs. So O db VU=-18dbfs are a common and good choice for start. But it's simply matter of choice, AES "standard" in US is Odb VU = -20dbfs for exemple. Some mastering house use 0db VU = - 15 dbfs.

But 0db VU=-18dbfs is a good compromise between headroom/level for rock/metal...etc music.

Now you have your system calibrated so you don't overdrive (and clip) your converter, your plugin...etc. And you don't run out of headroom so your mix will sound better. Most plugins use 0db VU = -18dbfs as reference (check your plugin manual), and have an imput and output level for proper gain staging.

Gearslutz original post was for point one particular thing: people don't learn about DAW, record as hot as possible (old 16bits era habbit when you had to record as hot as possible for raise the s/n ratio) while being on a 24bits world, and complain about digital this or that.

So what happen when you put a session like that on a properly calibrated system? X mass tree! All channels cliping and that without any plugins. Now put an eq on it, boost like crazy...etc. So you get the picture

So put a trim plugin first on the chain for get proper level. But you don't need to put one before each plugins

 

[Star Ark]

Most of us here aim for -18 when tracking

I'm surprised this Burrows guy is getting so many pro tools sessions with red lining tracks in 2011

 

[MetalSir]

So put a trim plugin first on the chain for get proper level. But you don't need to put one before each plugins

oh, yeah.. this was quite clear to me..
i was starting on what you just write (even if my english sucks).. but, really.. for me all this was clear because of, as you just wrote, are basic concept..

my question was: for you, this TRIMMER matter, really cares? plugins really works better if i put a TRIM before the entire chain (i mean 1 TRIM for channel, as first plugin of the chain)?

this was my question.. you just wrote:

Most plugins use 0db VU = -18dbfs as reference

and this is basically the answer i was searching for..

 

[Mikaël-ange]

my question was: for you, this TRIMMER matter, really cares? plugins really works better if i put a TRIM before the entire chain (i mean 1 TRIM for channel, as first plugin of the chain)?

I put trim plugin only when I work with outside session, for get proper gain staging.
I never have to do this on session I tracked.

 

[MetalSir]

I put trim plugin only when I work with outside session, for get proper gain staging.
I never have to do this on session I tracked.

what's about your gain staging setup? it's a very stupid question but i'm even trying to understand why burrows needs this TRIM plugin in front of everything.. (i think that yuour answer will be something like: "from -18 to -12 dBFS").. btw i'm starting to think that burrows wrote a bullshit.

for me the TRIM plugin has sense IF (and i EVEN IF) really exist some limitation regarding the input stage of some other plugin.

or i'm fucking stupid (and may be) or i miss something fuckin important.

 

[Adrian Warren]

This document has pretty much all the information needed to understand proper gain staging for working itb. http://www.popmusic.dk/download/pdf/levels-in-digital-audio.pdf

 

[MetalSir]

This document has pretty much all the information needed to understand proper gain staging for working itb. http://www.popmusic.dk/download/pdf/levels-in-digital-audio.pdf

tks adrian! =)
but the point is not about how to get a proper gain staging.. i ALWAYS stay between -18dbFS and -12dbFS..

the question is, as i wrote: really exists plugins working better with a gain staging closer to the analog machines they simulate?

as someone told me i'm reading my plugins's documetation searching for this detail..

 

[Mikaël-ange]

what's about your gain staging setup? it's a very stupid question but i'm even trying to understand why burrows needs this TRIM plugin in front of everything.. (i think that yuour answer will be something like: "from -18 to -12 dBFS").. btw i'm starting to think that burrows wrote a bullshit.

for me the TRIM plugin has sense IF (and i EVEN IF) really exist some limitation regarding the input stage of some other plugin.

or i'm fucking stupid (and may be) or i miss something fuckin important.

Remember, -18dbfs RMS, so you get -10dbfs peak.
You need your trim plugin once for get a proper gain staging (like exist on any console). And yes you can clip both plugin imput/output stage, or run out of headroom...