Any good totally ITB productions?

[Melb_shredder]

I had huge issues with raw drums when I first started, but over time throughout learning about the room effect, kit quality, kit tuning (drum tech helped here), skins, playing consistency, mic placement etc. it became much easier to keep more and more of the raw drum sounds in my productions. It's not 100% real, and I doubt it ever will be for me (in metal), as I prefer drum sounds which have been slightly augmented. There are elements of consistency and tone shaping which sample stacking provides that can't be achieved with any measure of tweaking a raw drum - but this is a far cry from outright replacing everything as a matter of standard procedure. That would essentially defeat the point of recording real drums in the first place.
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Just want to +1 this section right here! This in all aspects, bass/ guitars/ vocals etc is what I feel is most important as an 'engineer'. Knowing and learning how to get the best from the SOURCE to begin with. If we can't at least learn how to do that, what good are we? I've spent so much time learning good mic techniques, what pres work well with what sources, how drums should be tuned, played, micd, what amp settings and amps work with what.. If I just used Pod Farm + SSD all the time... What exactly am I doing?

I'm about as much an engineer as a McDonalds employee is a Chef... Sure he puts a burger together... but using the same meat bun and stuffing every single place uses that almost anyone can do... Instant gratification! I want to be that Chef who runs his own restaurant that people are lining up for because it's unique, fantastic and the flavor stays with you when you go to sleep that night!

Silly example maybe... but it's exactly what I think about the whole thing anyways

 

[LBTM]

I was talking about crappy performances, but whatever.

@xFkx loose the attitude.

 

[Sethis]

I don't think it can get more "fake" than this

 

[amarshism]

Epic +1 to ermz and Chris. I got into this to make great sounding records and to learn about how best to capture real instruments moving air into a microphone to achieve that.

 

[LBTM]

Alright guys. Record shitty, time-all-over-the-place, pussy hitting drummers with the best tuned drum set, with the best microphones, placement and the greatest room. Is it going to sound good? NO. That's what I'm talking about. I use programming as a bad alternative to that problem. Not that I haven't spend a shit load of time learning about tuning, placing microphones, getting rooms to sound better...etc. If the drummer isn't willing to learn the parts well, no matter what you do, real drums will sound garbage. And that's what I get here. Sorry if I wasn't clear but we're saying the same thing, don't we?

 

[Revson]

Alright guys. Record shitty, time-all-over-the-place, pussy hitting drummers with the best tuned drum set, with the best microphones, placement and the greatest room. Is it going to sound good? NO. That's what I'm talking about. I use programming as a bad alternative to that problem. Not that I haven't spend a shit load of time learning about tuning, placing microphones, getting rooms to sound better...etc. If the drummer isn't willing to learn the parts well, no matter what you do, real drums will sound garbage. And that's what I get here. Sorry if I wasn't clear but we're saying the same thing, don't we?

No, if you have to record a shitty drummer then you record a shitty drummer, edit, and layer with samples (preferably taken from the kit you're recording) until it's listenable. Real human performance, however shitty, trumps programming any day. Stop trying to justify being a lazy engineer.

 

[Arsenu,]

^

+ 10000000000000000000000000000000000000000

 

[LBTM]

No, if you have to record a shitty drummer then you record a shitty drummer, edit, and layer with samples (preferably taken from the kit you're recording) until it's listenable. Real human performance, however shitty, trumps programming any day. Stop trying to justify being a lazy engineer.

I'm actually recording real drums, convert everything to midi after the fact, fuck around with velocities to make it sound more like human, editing DIs to fuck, note-by-note, tuning and moving around vocals....I don't know if I'm a lazy engineer but I do a shit load of work after recording.

 

[JeffTD]

How are you converting everything to MIDI, though? Clicking in the cymbals? Unless you're painstakingly going through spot mics of every cymbal to get the hits exactly where he hit them, you're losing a LOT of feel on the timing and ALL of the feel on the dynamics.

I will take a heavily-edited, mediocre sounding kit in a small room over the best sounding programmed drums just about every time. Mixing fake cymbals is the biggest ballache ever; nothing ever sounds real and you're constantly fighting for life in the track that just doesn't exist.

 

[LBTM]

Spot mics for cymbals and converting them only when necessary. I'm placing them on 1/32s, trying to keep a good feel and also editing the dynamics. It doesn't sound as good as real cymbals but once you get used to it you can make it sound good enough. It's better keeping an open mind and not being negative on what technology can do. Trying to tell a drummer not to smash the OHs and pussy hit the snare after every take, and trying to change "his style", will only piss everyone off. Also they have not the patience for changing drum heads, strings, tuning drums...etc. Bands here care about the final product I deliver, not how I made it. This conversation leads to nowhere but a fight so I prefer not to participate anymore.

 

[JeffTD]

That's cool, just don't parade around like you're recording bands. You're not - you're programming instruments. That's my biggest issue with all of these techniques; I'm SO sick and tired of pretending I'm listening to a band when I know I've heard those cymbals on a million other releases.

 

[Revson]

So you're going through the hassle of recording a full drum kit only to get rid of it all and program everything? That's not engineering, that's simply wasting everyone's time and lying to musicians. It's your job as an engineer to get the best possible sound out of a musicians instrument. If that means telling them to hit drums like a man instead of a dainty little girl afraid of chipping a nail, then that's what you have to do. While you hurt someone's feelings? Probably, but you need to get them to suck it up and understand that you're trying to help them be better.

Did we hurt your feelings? If so, suck it up and understand that we're trying to help you be better.

 

[JohnGalloway]

This thread is getting me real excited about getting a proper drum recording setup.

 

[The StabbinCabin]

The dude isn't a lazy engineer because he'd rather use pre recorded drums for a super shitty drummer. That's the help that shit provides. If I have a guy that claims he's a drummer for a band and his performance is incredibly terrible- he's going on an e-kit. If a guy is trying to play a skank beat or some shit and can't even match his hands on the snare and ride (Cannibal Corpse syndrome) no amount of drum editing is going to fix that mess. And you shouldn't be expected to edit peoples shit like that anyway. It's the musician that's lazy, not you.

Revson- dude, that's just your personal approach. Real drums (wood and tuning and cymbals in an ideal room) trump programmed drums. But if some kid is playing a Pearl Export with AA/ZBT cymbals and wants to be the next George Kollias when he can't even play consistent if his life depended on it- you'd be shooting yourself in the foot if you didn't have the kid on an e-kit and edit midi. Just because you tell someone to play better isn't going to make them give you any better of a performance. I'd much rather sacrifice individuality for fidelity if that's what the band NEEDED.

And while I empathize with LBTM- all this shit is dependent on the source and demand or the band in session. It would be easier to pass judgement if we could be there to actually see how shitty or not shitty his sessions were. And drummers would have to be TERRIBLE with first act drums for me to prefer a programmed route. My recordings with real drums that were played consistent and with good cymbals shit all over my programmed stuff as far as sounding original and ease of fitting things into the mix. If LBTM has a decent drummer on a good kit in a pretty nice room then yeah- that's pretty dumb to take extra steps to just fully replace a 421 or something. I would do what Revson suggests in that situation. Just depends. That's what prepro is for.

Back OT for the whole ITB mixes- Javi Preva (I think that was his last name) got some pretty listenable results with those Stawberry programmed guitars and Superior. I'd have to look it up but the dude posted it on here.

 

[LBTM]

So you're going through the hassle of recording a full drum kit only to get rid of it all and program everything? That's not engineering, that's simply wasting everyone's time and lying to musicians. It's your job as an engineer to get the best possible sound out of a musicians instrument. If that means telling them to hit drums like a man instead of a dainty little girl afraid of chipping a nail, then that's what you have to do. While you hurt someone's feelings? Probably, but you need to get them to suck it up and understand that you're trying to help them be better.

Did we hurt your feelings? If so, suck it up and understand that we're trying to help you be better.

Just to make a few things clear... I always tell the musicians about the way I work, it's in the contract too, and anyways, I'm known for "that" sound and people will come to me for that very reason. Nobody complained so far about programmed drums or editing. I'm recording the full drum kit because I program based on the actual performances, to get a live vibe, and I'm not placing everything as tightly as possible. I always like to learn about how other people work so this thread has some valuable information for me, but I'm more a mixing than an engineering guy. Though each time I'm recording samples of the kit and use them instead of having the exact same sound on every band. I'm kinda of a one trick pony but it's what people like so everybody's happy with it. Thanks for sharing that kind of information, there's positive things that came out of this agreement so it wasn't a total waste of time/energy.

 

[RevoltStudios]

My thoughts: You'll never be anyone if you don't have your own sound, and that's not possible by programming everything with the same crap everyone else uses. Seen many Nashville producers end their career by that lazy approach.

 

[LBTM]

My thoughts: You'll never be anyone if you don't have your own sound, and that's not possible by programming everything with the same crap everyone else uses. Seen many Nashville producers end their career by that lazy approach.

I agree. I use custom samples I make in each session. I'm trying to adjust my mixing style for every band but yet maintaining "that" kind of vibe for everyone. I wouldn't use DFH or SSD in any real production, not because they're not good, they're great, but exactly that. I don't wanna be like the next guy. I'm trying to offer a "great and unique product" dopey and do the best job I can. I'm not going with the lazy approach. I could just reject bad bands but then I would have much less work and I wouldn't have a good client base. I'm spending 4-5 hours a day just editing and tightening, something that wouldn't be required if I was recording great bands but I still think that's a great way on advancing as a mixing guy and really having fun. It's always a great feeling when finishing a mix and be like "wow, that sounds great" than "my mixes suck, it might be the band, it might be me that fucked up somewhere".

 

[JeffTD]

^^You're still using drums samples and programmed cymbals. You still end up with an artificial/fake aesthetic. You still run into the same problems you're saying that you avoid.

I realize you want to protect your ego and your own sense of self-worth, but at the end of the day you're not doing anything very special unless you're sticking mics on real instruments and mixing real musicians.

 

[Mago]

Just to make a few things clear... I always tell the musicians about the way I work, it's in the contract too, and anyways, I'm known for "that" sound and people will come to me for that very reason. Nobody complained so far about programmed drums or editing. I'm recording the full drum kit because I program based on the actual performances, to get a live vibe, and I'm not placing everything as tightly as possible. I always like to learn about how other people work so this thread has some valuable information for me, but I'm more a mixing than an engineering guy. Though each time I'm recording samples of the kit and use them instead of having the exact same sound on every band. I'm kinda of a one trick pony but it's what people like so everybody's happy with it. Thanks for sharing that kind of information, there's positive things that came out of this agreement so it wasn't a total waste of time/energy.

If the drummer is so bad that you can't straighten it with editing, then I wonder which "vibe" is there to preserve with going through the PITA of programming it by listeing to the multitracks.

And I know what PITA that is, I had to do that for my bands first album, cause I really fucked up the overheads during recording (bad room, bad placement in the room, not giving enough attentio that the fuckers moved during sessions and sillyness like that). But guess what, it was such a pain that I really learned a lot through that, cause I never want to have to do that again.

So I dunno why you dont just record them on an e-kit,as mentioned.

 

[RedDog]

My 2c for the drum route, invest in a house kit. Learn to tune drums. And I love bulb.