Love

[judas69]

He's not saying Love doesn't exist, he's saying our biology is completely responsible for our drive to express it, and the experience of it.

I know it's probably hard for you to consider the possibility that we are nothing more than fleshy meat machines, like every other animal, but it's pretty easy for most of us here.

Let's pretend some guy loves his spouse so deeply ..what makes you so sure she truely loves him in return? Let's pretend she doesn't. If he is feeling "Love", and she's just going through the motions, what can we say about Love? We might conclude it's all in the head of the person ..and no "heart chakra" connection as you propose. Besides, brain scans show the brain is extremely active when the person is "in Love" ..you cannot deny the biological connection to this and all we do and experience in the world. What makes "Love", any different? Well, in your case, it's because you want it to be different. I don't know your personality type, but I bet you have an "F" in there (feeling).

INFJ <- just checked .. ahh, it's just too easy sometimes.

With posts like this I tend to think that if you think about LOVE as something that can be measure and rationalized, then you may never understand that it just is.

Now I'll say it again, having a critical approach to this topic does not at all inhibit or reduce ones innate ability to love. And saying we "cannot understand love" like a fundamentalist would say "we cannot understand God" ..is a choice made by you, based on what you want to be true, not what probably is.

It's the same thing with the Marijuana topic. You made repeated posts about how it "increased creativity". When I mentioned it was a myth, you got all defensive and emotional until I posted a study showing it not only didn't help one become more creative, but it actually reduced it in chronic users.

 

[derek]

I think it does act as a sort of placebo where people believe it makes them more creative, and ergo...they become more creative.

 

[judas69]

I think it does act as a sort of placebo where people believe it makes them more creative, and ergo...they become more creative.

Yep, I had considered that possibility in those posts..

 

[derek]

That idea must have it's roots in someone actually experiencing enhanced creativity, presumably? Or is it more just a view that has kinda arose since cannabis was used to that end with no defined root?

Personally, LSD and marijuana have made me more creative, or at least make me take a different perspective which allows me to explore another creative dimension. See the works of Alex Grey for some good examples of this phenomena too:http://www.alexgrey.com/

Some folks may recognise his stuff because Tool (the band) have used various pieces for their artwork.

 

[ARC150]

I believe this to be a fundamentally important emotion, and I see emotions as a type of logic.

I would classify emotions as those constructs that lie outside of logic. Logic (to wit: thought) involves a systematic application of evaluation, order and judgement; emotion is something of a shortcut through deductive reasoning - the conclusion is typically the same as the initial premise.

Thought:
-I appreciate someone who is intelligent and gregarious
-This person is intelligent
-This person is gregarious
---
I appreciate this person

Emotion:
-I love you
---
I love you


***

It's like the adage "you don't choose who you love" - you simply love them. It, in a sense, is like a hardwired response, a reaction to someone that presents itself immediately and definitely.

This is not to say there is no cultivated (perhaps enculturated) aspects or logical reasons for being attracted to one you love...but in addition to that there is an element that begs the question "why do you love" - I love because I just do.

***

The allusion that keeps coming to mind as I try to explain this is the mechanism of apriori physical response:

You touch something dangerously hot with your hand.
You pull your hand back before you even realize that it is hot.
This happens because neurons are fired down two distinct neural pathways: One stimulates your concious awareness (frontal lobal activity).
The other stimulates your muscle-response directly.
It takes longer to mentally process the event than to contract the necessary muscles required to pull back your hand.

After the fact you reason the action, but the action itself was the product of a construct that lies outside of thought.

I think emotion works in this way.

 

[ARC150]

6 Billion people in the world and we fool ourselves into thinking we have found our soulmate, huh?

Dig.

A massive study of emotional attraction in people (read: love) was carried out to determine what are the characteristics/elements that yield compatibility in couples. Why do we choose whom we choose?

A couple high ranking elements were equal physical attractiveness and equal intelligence, but the far-and-away, number one element was simply this:

Physical proximity.

Now this is, of course, obvious - how could you fall in love with someone you are never with; but it underscores the fact that people are attracted to people - there are many people with whom we are compatible. Otherwise, how could so many people find a compatible mate considering the relative paucity of people we meet in a given lifetime.

 

[ARC150]

One more...

On the issue of Love as a component of survival:

The impulse of self preservation helps keep the individual alive, but without the impulse (I think it can be categorized as an impulse of sorts) of love for another, the members of a species would not band together...and this is necessary for survival of a species.

A mother is instinctively protective of her offspring - this impulse, at times, wars against the impulse of self-preservation...but without it, the chance of the species surviving is greatly reduced.

This gets to the idea of altruism: such an impulse is not beneficial to the individual, but it is beneficial to the group.

This gets back to the idea of love as an emotion and an emotion as a construct outside the construct of logic.

 

[Norsemaiden]

All the more reason to drown ones sorrows in a plethora of whores upon Beatrice finding out.

Question to men who use whores:
When a whore gets murdered by her client, most people don't care (in fact that is an understatement). Do you care about whores? Do you see them purely as objects, or slaves or as a person who deserves your respect? Do you kid yourself that during sex she is enjoying it rather than thinking about the money?
I can see that they provide a role of reducing the number of rapists on the streets. The whole situation is depressing.
If you thought that the woman was being drugged and threatened into prostitution by her pimp, would you try to help her?
I'm just curious.

 

[Susperia]

I'm really glad you asked that Norsemaiden... I'm curious to see how honest their replies might be.

 

[speed]

Question to men who use whores:
When a whore gets murdered by her client, most people don't care (in fact that is an understatement). Do you care about whores? Do you see them purely as objects, or slaves or as a person who deserves your respect? Do you kid yourself that during sex she is enjoying it rather than thinking about the money?
I can see that they provide a role of reducing the number of rapists on the streets. The whole situation is depressing.
If you thought that the woman was being drugged and threatened into prostitution by her pimp, would you try to help her?
I'm just curious.

I think we were both kidding. And we were seperating love from the whores; you see they are only to fulfill ones sexual desires.

In the US at least, this whore idea is totally ridiculous due to the nature of women selling themselves for sex. Sure, there are heaps of American women that marry or date men and have sex with them for their money, but very few non-drug addicts that do so on a professional basis. However, if I was living in Amsterdam, or Eastern Europe, I probably would see nothing wrong with a trip down to the whorehouse occasionally.

 

[speed]

Dig.

A massive study of emotional attraction in people (read: love) was carried out to determine what are the characteristics/elements that yield compatibility in couples. Why do we choose whom we choose?

A couple high ranking elements were equal physical attractiveness and equal intelligence, but the far-and-away, number one element was simply this:

Physical proximity.

Now this is, of course, obvious - how could you fall in love with someone you are never with; but it underscores the fact that people are attracted to people - there are many people with whom we are compatible. Otherwise, how could so many people find a compatible mate considering the relative paucity of people we meet in a given lifetime.

Yes, I stated this about proximity twice on this thread, but no one bothered to bring it up.

Oh, the new National Geographic's cover story is on love. Apparently when people are in love, ones brain acts as if they were addicted (thus the adrenaline, the lack of sleep, the need to touch and be with ones lover, and all the usual things we experience). But this feeling cannot last longer than three years at the most. After a few years with the same person, the brain starts making extra amounts of a chemical that increases our dopamine. THus, those who stay together, no longer are in love, but are in a beneficial form of interdependence. I dont hve the magazine with me, or I could write the actual name of this dependence.

 

[Kenneth R.]

But this feeling cannot last longer than three years at the most.

4 and still going...

 

[judas69]

Question to men who use whores:
When a whore gets murdered by her client, most people don't care (in fact that is an understatement). Do you care about whores? Do you see them purely as objects, or slaves or as a person who deserves your respect? Do you kid yourself that during sex she is enjoying it rather than thinking about the money?
I can see that they provide a role of reducing the number of rapists on the streets. The whole situation is depressing.
If you thought that the woman was being drugged and threatened into prostitution by her pimp, would you try to help her?
I'm just curious.

I think prostitution should be legalized and controlled; I see nothing wrong with it. That said, I don't think most males consider them any different from say the garbage man, or the gay guy who works at mcdonalds and always takes your order and smiles a lot at you, which bothers you, not that there's anything wrong with that .. but I hope he didn't touch the fries.

 

[speed]

4 and still going...

Haha. Its good to see someone has such a nice relationship. Well according to the article, which should be on local newstands, the chemical addiction ceases around two to three years.

 

[Norsemaiden]

Haha. Its good to see someone has such a nice relationship. Well according to the article, which should be on local newstands, the chemical addiction ceases around two to three years.

I have heard about this years ago, except the way it was explained then is that after the intense passion stage of love it becomes a different kind of love, but still love nontheless, just less obsessive.
Some people (many apparantly) never in their life experience the passion and just either get married as a decision (or arrangement) or never commit to a relationship. On the other hand some people are adicted to the falling in love feeling and when it goes away they leave the person and try to find the feeling again.

 

[Norsemaiden]

I think prostitution should be legalized and controlled; I see nothing wrong with it. That said, I don't think most males consider them any different from say the garbage man, or the gay guy who works at mcdonalds and always takes your order and smiles a lot at you, which bothers you, not that there's anything wrong with that .. but I hope he didn't touch the fries.

You didn't answer the questions I asked, so maybe these questions are too challenging in some way. Not that you can't understand, but more that the answers are uncomfortable?
I don't disagree with the points you made above, but two defining motivations for all of my views on everything is that I don't like injustice and I don't like bullies. This is what guides me on my views on prostitution, certainly not sexual prudishness.
Is a kind of feminism that is based on these principles acceptable to you? Or is that not really feminism anyway - I am not sure.

 

[Susperia]

He hate's femininity... I wouldn't use the word feminism around him...

 

[speed]

He hate's femininity... I wouldn't use the word feminism around him...

I like that we have all these women around here.

So, I was wondering what the two of you: Norsemaiden and Susperia, think about love? Just how important is it to you women?

I've noticed alot of men, are really into love, or or actively looking for it. In many ways, I think men are more susceptable than women--an observation.

Also,there are a number of women, that think of sex exactly like men. They like to have it, and they do not form a emotional relationship with the man they are having sex with. Hence this is for the most part, the same idea behind our prostitution jokes. The difference is, most women, even ugly ones, can have this unattached sex if they want to; whereas most men, especially older or clumsy ones, are either forced to amuse themselves on the internet with porn, or pay for it.

 

[judas69]

You didn't answer the questions I asked, so maybe these questions are too challenging in some way. Not that you can't understand, but more that the answers are uncomfortable?
I don't disagree with the points you made above, but two defining motivations for all of my views on everything is that I don't like injustice and I don't like bullies. This is what guides me on my views on prostitution, certainly not sexual prudishness.
Is a kind of feminism that is based on these principles acceptable to you? Or is that not really feminism anyway - I am not sure.

Well, I thought I answered your question in a round about way. To those going to prostitutes, women are just objects for their own gradification. Would I help a prostitute the same as I would help anyone else, sure. I might just expect a tip.

 

[derek]

I'm quite unsure about the issue of prostitution. I think if someone wishes to rent their body out to another person in return for money, and said person has no problem in doing so then I have zero problem with prostitution either. Seeking sexual gratification as and end in itself is not immoral in my eyes, providing its a clear cut and open choice for both parties.

The sex trade, as ran by seedy men whom kidnap girls and force them into sex, I have a problem with. That is why I believe prostitution should be legalised and organised so that no abuse of peoples happen.